Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode

  • From: "Peter Holdstock" <peterholdstock@xxxxxxx>
  • To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:18:41 +0100

I think those people who don't understand the problem with JAWS going straight in to forms mode are missing the point.
A sighted user, despite being placed in the edit field can still look around the web page for the content they need.
A JAWS user uses quick navigation keys to look around the site as a sighted person would. The quick navigation keys do not work whilst in forms mode so therefore you cannot quickly move around the site without having to go out of forms mode first.
The most sensible place to begin on a page is at the top then the user can decide where they want to go.
Also, in Google, yes it is safe to assume you are in the edit field, but not all websites put you in the search box, but some put you in the user id box, and others put you straight in to the password field if the user box is already inputted.
Many edit fields do not have sufficient labels attached to them for you to know what they are wanting you to input, and so it can be difficult to know whever you need to input the user id, password, search term or other information (although I realise this is for web developers to get in to the habit of doing putting better labels on forms).-------------------------
How many times have you gone to use quick navigation not realising that JAWS has gone in to auto forms mode and ended up entering text instead.
It has been pointed out that you can turn autoforms mode off. But I love autoforms, and just because I don't want to be put straight in to an edit fieold, doesn't mean I don't want to use auto forms mode for navigation.
I'm happy to be placed at the first edit box on a site loading, but I think on that one occasion, JAWS shouldn't put you in forms mode, but perhaps give you the usual message about pressing enter to go in to forms mode.------------------------- 

Peter
From: "Bissett, Tom" <tom.bissett@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 2:27 PM
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode


But google chooses to put your cursor on the search edit box and that is
it.  If you have a problem with that then complain to google.


Tom Bissett
BMO Financial Group
Technology and Operations
Integrated Client Solutions
Tel: (416) 549-6514
E-Mail tom.bissett@xxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of DJ
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 8:43 PM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode

I disagree.  The first thing I do at Google isn't always type in the
edit box.  I sometimes go to the Maps link, or some other area.  So
searching isn't the only thing on people's minds when they visit Google.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Rick Harmon
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 12:28 PM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode

No, if the primary thing you do on a page is immediately use an edit
field such as in the case of google then the focus is on the edit field.
I do believe this to be proper design of the webpage and nothing of FS
doing at all.

Also it has nothing to do with web designers hijacking us jaws users at
all.

Most of these web page designers have no idea what jaws even is.

Rick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yardbird" <yardbird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode


But Peter,

I'm not sure from what perspective you're saying this about page design.
When a Web page loads for a sighted user not using a screen reader,
there is not a focus issue or the page capturing the mouse pointer or a
cursor of some sort and jumping anywhere. The page simply loads, the
person sees all of it, glances to where they want to look, and reads.
Or, if they want to use an edit field, they see it and then put the
mouse pointer on it. They aren't captured the way our Jaws focus is
hijacked when a page loads and takes us straight to an edit field.

So do you mean that Web page designers have deliberately coded something
into edit fields in many cases that they know will attract the Jaws
focus?
Or is this rather something that FS designs into the way Jaws sees the
page as it loads? Or some combination of these two things? See what I
mean?
designes JasewJaww
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Holdstock" <peterholdstock@xxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode


Yes you can design the web page so that it jumps the user straight to a
field, and yes it will be because of that design as to why it happens
with
some sites and not with others.

I think that JAWS should initially treat the edit field it first jumps
to as
the page loads, in the same way as it treats form fields when you use
the
quick navigation keys.

Peter

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Yardbird" <yardbird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 4:20 PM
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode


Hi Peter and all,

It occurs to me that the reason this inconvenient forms mode thing is
happening when some Web pages load is that for reasons I'm not
sophisticated
enough to understand, the Jaws focus is sometimes drawn to the first

edit

field it sees as the page loads. As everyone knows, this doesn't

happen

with
every page, not even a lot of pages that have search functions not far
from
the top of the page. The New York Times, for instance. When one of the
article pages load, Jaws leaves me at the top of the page where I can

hear

the headline of the article and the name of the paper. If I actually

wish

to
use the global search function to look for something I don't know

where to

find in that day's edition, I hit E or arrow down or whatever until I

get

to
the search form.

But on other Web pages, Jaws jumps to a search edit field immediately,
bypassing text and other page elements that precede it if I arrow back
upward to see what's there. So it's something about this which, if it
didn't
happen that way, wouldn't trigger the auto forms mode thing that's got
everyone annoyed. Or almost everyone, anyway.

If anyone knows more about page design and the coding of Jaws to

confirm

or
preferably add to that admitted speculation, I'd be really interested

to

hear something more about this. It's the technology that interests me

at

this point, as I am not playing with the Beta and I don't feel like
getting
involved in complaining about Freedom Scientific's corporate style or
defending them, either.

Thanks very much.
From: "Peter Holdstock" <peterholdstock@xxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode


Yeh you do it out of habit, and then because it's already in forms

mode it

causes you to  press submit or something instead.

As I say, I like it though, just don't want it to turn on

automatically.


Peter

--------------------------------------------------
From: "dave-d0619" <dave-d0619@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 2:01 AM
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: JAWS 10 - Auto forms mode


I like that improvement, especially for sites such as Google, where

you

land
on the search edit field after the site has loaded.

Personally, I am so used to pressing ENTER to turn on Forms Mode, I

would

probably continue to do it out of habit and, as we all know, some

habits

are
so hard to break or change.

Sincerely:

Dave Durber

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