Re: Coding Google docs Not possible
- From: John Martyn <johnrobertmartyn@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:05:43 -0800
Yes, unfortunately FS wouldn't be able to do anything about this either. Only
google has the power.
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: Coding Google docs Not possible
John,
I suppose we will have to see if Google will correct this accessibility
problem. Perhaps the NFB complaint will wake them up.
Charles
From: John Martyn
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 1:17 AM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Coding google docs Not possible
Total bummer. I worked quite a while trying to get it to respond but nothing
works on the script end. Google docs is entirely written in javascript with a
bunch of div tags. I could get to the menus with some tricks and even select
stuff, etc. using control tab can get you to the top of the page and using the
f key will get you to the items in the document buttons. the buttons don't
respond but you can get there. The menus do work with space bar and down arrow
and such. the text editing is totally unreliable and doesn't work hardly at
all, if it does sometimes.
There's just nothing I can do to fix this one.
----- Original Message -----
From: Negoslav Sabev
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: Coding google docs
Good, but what will happen if they change the look or the structure of the
site after few months and once again after few more. This good man will stay
for hours to code something that will change after while and will need to do
this again for another set of hours.
Since jaws stays for job access with speech my vote is for MS Access,
because it's a work app and some people need it for a living . But maybe it's
better FS to do their job. Anyway, I believe that work is more important than
entertaining, because on the first place it gives you money to pay for it,,
smile.
Negoslav
----- Original Message -----
From: John Martyn
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 3:34 AM
Subject: Coding google docs
No, everything you are saying is important to know. For the future of
google docs it is important to know what direction things are heading in, how
fast they do it, and whether they do anything at all. We don't know what side
will win. This just argues that the use of google docs by colleges is unfair. I
don't know if google would even do anything. Given that they somewhat make
things accessible, what chances are that they make this possible. Would freedom
scientific listen if we put this task on them?
----- Original Message -----
From: Marquette, Ed
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 10:38 AM
Subject: RE: Coding for a new jaws accessible app
Thanks for sharing this. I was unaware that NFB had taken on Google
Docs indirectly by taking on the universities that apparently mandate it. I
think that may have been the same strategy employed against the Kindle. There
some progress was made -- though much slower than would have been ideal.
Nevertheless, YEA for the NFB!
I reviewed the video which purports to demonstrate the challenges of
using Google Docs with a screen reader. The demonstration uses JAWS 12. It
would have been a little more effective had the demonstration pointed out that
the help section entitled "Access with a Screen Reader" actually gives bogus
instructions. The demonstrator merely mentions that, by pressing Alt, the user
is taken to the browser menu and not the applications menu. The "help" section
specifically warns against that and encourages the user to hit "ESCAPE" to
access he menus. The problem is that the ESCAPE key, in fact, does not take
the user to any menus. As it stands, the video could be criticized because the
person doing the demonstration apparently didn't read the "access with a screen
reader" text in the help section. Of course, I may be too critical. After
all, this presumably wasn't produced as an exhibit for a jury.
It is one thing to offer up an inaccessible application. It is
something else (and much worse) to offer up an application which suggests it
may be accessible, but it is not.
Who knows? Perhaps officials at New York University and Northwestern,
the universities taken on by the NFB, actually took accessibility into account
and, seeing a whole section in the help system devoted to access using a screen
reader, concluded, erroneously, that Google Docs was accessible.
You are all probably sick of hearing me go on and on about Google and
Google Docs. I'll shut up now.
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From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Charles
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 12:34 PM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Coding for a new jaws accessible app
Hi,
In a news release dated 3/15/2011 the NFB has filed a complaint
against two Universities namely NEW York University and Northwestern University
concerning their adopting of software that is not accessible to the blind.
In their request to investigate made to the department of Justice
Civil Rights Department the NFB states the adopting of Google apps for
education which includes Google docs, g mail, etc;, discriminates against
blind staff and students.
A full copy of the news release can be found at: www.nfb.org
Charles
From: Marquette, Ed
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:30 AM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Coding for a new jaws accessible app
OK.
This "coding for an application" raises a good point. Indeed,
Internet Explorer, FireFox, and the like are applications; however, Websites
have progressed well beyond what we think of as traditional Websites.
More and more, I'm seeing applications migrate away from the
client/server model, where something is installed on a local PC, to Web-based
applications, where the application resides remotely and is only accessed
through the browser.
For instance, I use a Web application at my office which is a pretty
sophisticated document management system.
By that, I mean only a shadow of a Microsoft Office document resides
on the local drive (and only for emergency back-up purposes). The real files
are not even located on a remote server that our firm owns. Instead, they
reside somewhere in a mountain cave in Utah.
When I want to access, search for, or save a document, Internet
Explorer runs a Web application that looks up or stores the document with a
whole range of information (e.g., author, creation date, last edit date, client
number, matter number, document name, type of law, type of document, and
selected key words.). The look-up operates much like a Google search operates
or, in the alternative, by field look-up.
There are competitive applications, but they all operate on the
client/server model.
The point is that more and more of these Web applications are
appearing. Fortunately, the one referenced above is pretty well behaved,
particularly with JAWS and its quick keys, or whatever they are called.
It does not, however, respond all that well to scripts. That,
however, may be my ineptitude as a script writer, though the scripts I wrote
were hardly more than macros, i.e., a series of keystrokes.
I would certainly like to see an accomplished script writer tackle,
or try to tackle, a Web application of general applicability.
I cannot think of an application with more general applicability than
Google Docs, but I do have my own selfish objectives that, in the interest of
full disclosure, I need to reveal. Still, a free application that can be
shared in a collaborative way with power that approaches Microsoft Office would
be pretty important to lots of people.
Google Docs is free. Microsoft Office doesn't come cheap.
Google Docs, however, may simply be too great a challenge. After
all, all the screen reader people seem to have given up on it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Bob W
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 5:48 AM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Coding for a new jaws accessible app
Peter, here's my thinking and I hope others will correct me if I'm
wrong.
A website is not an application.
the applications involved would be your browser--i.e. or firefox,
or chrome.
For that matter, google docs would not be an application either.
Just my thoughts.
Bob
A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know
that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Holdstock
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 5:06 AM
Subject: Re: Coding for a new jaws accessible app
Hi, for many blind people dating is quite difficult and many
dating websites don’t seem too accessible, and I have seen a few posts from
people trying to get various websites working. I’d be very grateful if the
website www.plentyoffish.com was made accessible in some way. It is pretty
accessible at the mom ent so shouldn’t require too much work, but
there are a lot of extra links and information you have to try and bypass to
get to the useful stuff.
I may be the only one who wants that website accessible, but I
hope not and I think lots would benefit from a fully accessible dating site
where it’s not just disabled people.
Peter
Thanks.
Peter
From: John Martyn
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 8:33 AM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; jaws-users-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Coding for a new jaws accessible app
Hi folks,
As my 32nd birthday approaches, I think I am going to make a
habit of picking one new application per year to make jaws accessible. Picking
Rhapsody was not an easy task, but it taught me many things about an
application that seems next to impossible to make behave. I am taking off this
summer from school and will have the time to code a new application. Rhapsody
Blind was a test to see if I could pull it off, and it worked. I selfishly
chose the first one, now I'm looking for the popular vote on what you might
want. I probably won't start until this semester is over at the end of May, so
this gives plenty of time to decide. It would be a good idea to chat among each
other and find out what is needed or just plain want for entertainment
purposes. So, let's open up the floor and hear some suggestions.
Thanks,
John Martyn
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