Re: Any progress on Amazon?
- From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx>
- To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:21:34 -0500
Vote with your wallets!
This is the only way to effect the change you seek.
There are alternatives and we hear about their superiority on this list ad
nauseum. Those alternative vendors will be appreciative and so will some of us.
I do not shop at Amazon.com or .ca for exactly those reasons, even before this,
their content is so deeply buried in what others purchased, what alternatives I
might like to purchase, ten favourites lists apparently compiled by severely
intellectually challenged individuals clearly without gainful employment to use
up their time ... Just locating the results of a search is more effort than I
have time for. There are alternative shopping sites all over the Web. Many of
them actually appear to appreciate taking my money.
Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada
DLeavens@xxxxxxx
Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Spratt" <A.Spratt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: Any progress on Amazon?
> One last note. As I'm sure everyone else does, I admire your ingenuity,
> Bruce, in finding solutions and your refusal to let technology failures get
> in the way. That is what this list is about. Thanks also to Michael G and
> yardbird for affirming the relevance of our short discussion.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Yardbird" <yardbird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>
> > Hi Bruce,
> >
> > I don't think it's a waste of time to engage in a thoughtful, intelligent
> > discussion. I don't think it's just griping, like old guys sitting at a
> > bar
> > and complaining. Do you, really? You and I have seen some *real*
> > pointless
> > griping, totally emotional and grounded in little except for indignation,
> > and that inspired by the feeling of helplessness that is a true challenge
> > to
> > deal with. I don't mean the kind of helplessness that needs a therapist,
> > or
> > AA, or a kick in the butt from some macho trainer. I mean something real
> > like when I get carted halfway across Los Angeles because a bus driver
> > declined to announce his stops but promised me he'd tell me when mine came
> > up. For instance. But then I deal with that one by undertaking an
> > advocacy
> > campaign with the transit system company. Which, whatever gains I manage
> > to
> > effect, first and foremost returns to me my sense of agency, wipes away
> > the
> > feeling of impotence and humiliation.impotan
> >
> > But I digress. I don't think either you or Adrian were simply complaining
> > in that low-grade way, and I don't think the conversation was pointless.
> > You're thinking something through together in a colloquy, that's how I see
> > it, anyway.
> >
> > every of indinancy,gournded emotiona
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bruce Toews" <DogRiver@xxxxxxxx>
> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:19 PM
> > Subject: Re: Any progress on Amazon?
> >
> >
> > Well, we can sit here on this list being indignant all we want, but
> > neither Amazon nor FS is on this list, so what good does it do us?
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > --
> > Bruce Toews
> > E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: DogRiver@xxxxxxxx
> > Web Site (including info on my weekly commentaries): http://www.ogts.net
> > Info on the Best TV Show of All Time: http://www.cornergas.com
> >
> > On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Michael G. wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Yeah, that workaround is just that...a workaround. It's not the way I'd
> >> prefer to shop on Amazon. It's annoying not being able to just click
> >> on
> >> the link of an item and it does require a little more time. I hope
> >> somebody,
> >> somewhere does something to fix this issue. Amazon is the biggest
> >> online
> >> retailer and Jaws is the most widely used screen reder. We should have
> >> the
> >> ability to access the web site without any hassle. The way I see it, if
> >> Amazon isn't responsible and...Freedom Scientific isn't
> >> responsible...then
> >> who is? Should we just grin and bear it? I hope not.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Spratt"
> >> <A.Spratt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:10 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Any progress on Amazon?
> >>
> >>
> >>> How we approach access issues is a critical consideration in deciding
> >>> which technology problems to solve.
> >>>
> >>> It isn't enough that a blind person can do something without sighted
> >>> assistance. We need to accomplish tasks quickly and efficiently to
> >>> keep
> >>> up with sighted colleagues. Today's technology has made us
> >>> competitive,
> >>> and we mustn't let that historic development slip away. You cite 25
> >>> seconds as the extra time required, but you're not counting the time it
> >>> takes us in the first place to work out a solution when the answer is
> >>> intuitive to a sighted viewer. Also, if I'm not mistaken, you're
> >>> describing a situation where you know what you want. I often use
> >>> Amazon
> >>> to figure out the best recording, related books, and so on. If my
> >>> shopping doesn't start out with a specific target, the new access
> >>> limitations hinder me. In fact, they've driven me to Barnes and Noble,
> >>> www.bn.com.
> >>>
> >>> There's no clear legal answer, and a certain case hurts both our
> >>> positions. But there's an analogy in current developments in
> >>> environmental
> >>> law. The U.S. hasn't agreed to be bound by the Kyoto Treaty, but many
> >>> U.S. corporations, including ones that do little or no business abroad,
> >>> are upgrading their operations to comply anyway. Market forces and
> >>> public
> >>> relations help explain why. Visually impaired people may be a small
> >>> market, but we're focused and have earned much goodwill. Not charity,
> >>> but
> >>> goodwill in the old-fashioned consumer sense.
> >>>
> >>> Besides, FS is under a contractual obligation to make websites
> >>> accessible
> >>> to its users. That's because FS has implied a warranty that JAWS is
> >>> fit
> >>> for the ordinary purposes for which it is sold and used.
> >>>
> >>> We should continue to expect accessibility from Amazon and other
> >>> websites
> >>> and to demand that FS address the deficiency.
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Toews" <DogRiver@xxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:51 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: Any progress on Amazon?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > I ordered a giftfor an american friend yesterday from amazon.com.
> >>> > Using
> >>> > the list-of-links method of ordering the product took me, perhaps, on
> >>> > the
> >>> > outside, twenty-five seconds longer than it would have otherwise,
> >>> > thanks
> >>> > to first-letter navigation. Part of the problem is that no two blind
> >>> > people can agree on what "accessible" means. to me, "accessible" means
> >>> > "can you do it without sighted asistance?" Obviously, you subscribe to
> >>> > a
> >>> > different view of what accessibility means, which is fine. But what is
> >>> > the legal view?
> >>> >
> >>> > Bruce
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > Bruce Toews
> >>> > E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: DogRiver@xxxxxxxx
> >>> > Web Site (including info on my weekly commentaries):
> >>> > http://www.ogts.net
> >>> > Info on the Best TV Show of All Time: http://www.cornergas.com
> >>> >
> >>> > On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Adrian Spratt wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > Bruce,
> >>> > >
> >>> > > It's useful to inject a note of realism into how we analyze what we
> >>> > > expect from websites and Freedom Scientific. From Amazon's point
> >>> > > of
> >>> > > view, you make a fair point that the ability of WindowEyes to
> >>> > > handle
> >>> > > their website suggests that they are meeting minimal web design
> >>> > > accessibility standards. However, while we need to be reasonable
> >>> > > as
> >>> > > JAWS users, we shouldn't take reasonableness to an extreme, if
> >>> > > you'll
> >>> > > forgive the oxymoron. I don't agree with you that use of the
> >>> > > insert-F7 links list command is quick and easy. It is less quick
> >>> > > and
> >>> > > easy than navigation of the Amazon website was before the recent
> >>> > > design change. If WindowEyes were also unable to navigate Amazon,
> >>> > > this
> >>> > > substitute navigation method would be unacceptable.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > We must always hold web designers accountable for failures of
> >>> > > accessibility. In cases where JAWS cannot properly access a website
> >>> > > but Windoweyes can, we must pressure FS for a better and faster
> >>> > > response than we are getting here and that we got in the New York
> >>> > > Times situation.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > As an aside, JAWS still provides full access to the UK website, if
> >>> > > users are prepared to pay international shipping rates, sometimes
> >>> > > offset by some good pricing at that website. In rough terms, 1
> >>> > > pound
> >>> > > sterling equals $1.80. Here's the web address:
> >>> > > www.amazon.uk.co
> >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Toews"
> >>> > > <DogRiver@xxxxxxxx>
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > > If I'm Amazon, here's what I'm thinking, when I'm thinking about
> >>> > > > this at
> >>> > > > all. Two major screen readers, one has a problem withour site,
> >>> > > > another
> >>> > > > doesn't. What we did benefits 99.5% of our users, i.e., users
> >>> > > > with
> >>> > > > sight.
> >>> > > > Of the remaining people, many use the screen reader that doesn't
> >>> > > > have a
> >>> > > > problem with our site changes. It's not our fault if the other
> >>> > > > screen
> >>> > > > reader can't handle the change. I think they'd have a good point
> >>> > > > here.
> >>> > > > FS
> >>> > > > is not to blame for this problem, but they are completely
> >>> > > > responsible for
> >>> > > > the fix, in my view. amazon has no obligation to remove an
> >>> > > > enhancement to
> >>> > > > their site which they obviously feel is worth something to them
> >>> > > > and
> >>> > > > the
> >>> > > > majority of their users. And if you're a JAWS user, the method of
> >>> > > > turning
> >>> > > > off the virtual cursor, hitting insert+F7 for the list of links,
> >>> > > > then
> >>> > > > finding the link you need is a quick and easy solution to the
> >>> > > > problem
> >>> > > > until FS gets things sorted out on their end.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > Bruce
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > --
> >>> > > > Bruce Toews
> >>> > > > E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: DogRiver@xxxxxxxx
> >>> > > > Web Site (including info on my weekly commentaries):
> >>> > > > http://www.ogts.net
> >>> > > > Info on the Best TV Show of All Time: http://www.cornergas.com
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Jim Portillo wrote:
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > > Howdy,
> >>> > > > > Just wondering if there has been any progress with talking to
> >>> > > > > the
> >>> > > > > Amazon folks.
> >>> > > > > I've been making some phone calls, but they just don't seem to
> >>> > > > > understand some of the problems we're encountering as blind
> >>> > > > > folks,
> >>> > > > > because they don't understand about screen reading software.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I have gone to the
> >>> > > > > www.amazon.com/access
> >>> > > > > site, but that seems very limited because I can't do things
> >>> > > > > like
> >>> > > > > sell items, look at my account, wish lists, etc.
> >>> > > > > If anyone has figured out more or better ways, I'd appreciate
> >>> > > > > some
> >>> > > > > info.
> >>> > > > > Jim
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > --
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