Hi Bruce,
I don't think it's a waste of time to engage in a thoughtful, intelligent
discussion. I don't think it's just griping, like old guys sitting at a
bar
and complaining. Do you, really? You and I have seen some *real*
pointless
griping, totally emotional and grounded in little except for indignation,
and that inspired by the feeling of helplessness that is a true challenge
to
deal with. I don't mean the kind of helplessness that needs a therapist,
or
AA, or a kick in the butt from some macho trainer. I mean something real
like when I get carted halfway across Los Angeles because a bus driver
declined to announce his stops but promised me he'd tell me when mine came
up. For instance. But then I deal with that one by undertaking an
advocacy
campaign with the transit system company. Which, whatever gains I manage
to
effect, first and foremost returns to me my sense of agency, wipes away
the
feeling of impotence and humiliation.impotan
But I digress. I don't think either you or Adrian were simply complaining
in that low-grade way, and I don't think the conversation was pointless.
You're thinking something through together in a colloquy, that's how I see
it, anyway.
every of indinancy,gournded emotiona
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Toews" <DogRiver@xxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: Any progress on Amazon?
Well, we can sit here on this list being indignant all we want, but
neither Amazon nor FS is on this list, so what good does it do us?
Bruce
--
Bruce Toews
E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: DogRiver@xxxxxxxx
Web Site (including info on my weekly commentaries): http://www.ogts.net
Info on the Best TV Show of All Time: http://www.cornergas.com
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Michael G. wrote:
Hi,
Yeah, that workaround is just that...a workaround. It's not the way I'd
prefer to shop on Amazon. It's annoying not being able to just click
on
the link of an item and it does require a little more time. I hope
somebody,
somewhere does something to fix this issue. Amazon is the biggest
online
retailer and Jaws is the most widely used screen reder. We should have
the
ability to access the web site without any hassle. The way I see it, if
Amazon isn't responsible and...Freedom Scientific isn't
responsible...then
who is? Should we just grin and bear it? I hope not.
Michael
----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Spratt"
<A.Spratt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: Any progress on Amazon?
How we approach access issues is a critical consideration in deciding
which technology problems to solve.
It isn't enough that a blind person can do something without sighted
assistance. We need to accomplish tasks quickly and efficiently to
keep
up with sighted colleagues. Today's technology has made us
competitive,
and we mustn't let that historic development slip away. You cite 25
seconds as the extra time required, but you're not counting the time it
takes us in the first place to work out a solution when the answer is
intuitive to a sighted viewer. Also, if I'm not mistaken, you're
describing a situation where you know what you want. I often use
Amazon
to figure out the best recording, related books, and so on. If my
shopping doesn't start out with a specific target, the new access
limitations hinder me. In fact, they've driven me to Barnes and Noble,
www.bn.com.
There's no clear legal answer, and a certain case hurts both our
positions. But there's an analogy in current developments in
environmental
law. The U.S. hasn't agreed to be bound by the Kyoto Treaty, but many
U.S. corporations, including ones that do little or no business abroad,
are upgrading their operations to comply anyway. Market forces and
public
relations help explain why. Visually impaired people may be a small
market, but we're focused and have earned much goodwill. Not charity,
but
goodwill in the old-fashioned consumer sense.
Besides, FS is under a contractual obligation to make websites
accessible
to its users. That's because FS has implied a warranty that JAWS is
fit
for the ordinary purposes for which it is sold and used.
We should continue to expect accessibility from Amazon and other
websites
and to demand that FS address the deficiency.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Toews" <DogRiver@xxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: Any progress on Amazon?
> I ordered a giftfor an american friend yesterday from amazon.com.
> Using
> the list-of-links method of ordering the product took me, perhaps, on
> the
> outside, twenty-five seconds longer than it would have otherwise,
> thanks
> to first-letter navigation. Part of the problem is that no two blind
> people can agree on what "accessible" means. to me, "accessible" means
> "can you do it without sighted asistance?" Obviously, you subscribe to
> a
> different view of what accessibility means, which is fine. But what is
> the legal view?
>
> Bruce
>
> --
> Bruce Toews
> E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: DogRiver@xxxxxxxx
> Web Site (including info on my weekly commentaries):
> http://www.ogts.net
> Info on the Best TV Show of All Time: http://www.cornergas.com
>
> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Adrian Spratt wrote:
>
> > Bruce,
> >
> > It's useful to inject a note of realism into how we analyze what we
> > expect from websites and Freedom Scientific. From Amazon's point
> > of
> > view, you make a fair point that the ability of WindowEyes to
> > handle
> > their website suggests that they are meeting minimal web design
> > accessibility standards. However, while we need to be reasonable
> > as
> > JAWS users, we shouldn't take reasonableness to an extreme, if
> > you'll
> > forgive the oxymoron. I don't agree with you that use of the
> > insert-F7 links list command is quick and easy. It is less quick
> > and
> > easy than navigation of the Amazon website was before the recent
> > design change. If WindowEyes were also unable to navigate Amazon,
> > this
> > substitute navigation method would be unacceptable.
> >
> > We must always hold web designers accountable for failures of
> > accessibility. In cases where JAWS cannot properly access a website
> > but Windoweyes can, we must pressure FS for a better and faster
> > response than we are getting here and that we got in the New York
> > Times situation.
> >
> > As an aside, JAWS still provides full access to the UK website, if
> > users are prepared to pay international shipping rates, sometimes
> > offset by some good pricing at that website. In rough terms, 1
> > pound
> > sterling equals $1.80. Here's the web address:
> > www.amazon.uk.co
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Toews"
> > <DogRiver@xxxxxxxx>
> >
> >
> > > If I'm Amazon, here's what I'm thinking, when I'm thinking about
> > > this at
> > > all. Two major screen readers, one has a problem withour site,
> > > another
> > > doesn't. What we did benefits 99.5% of our users, i.e., users
> > > with
> > > sight.
> > > Of the remaining people, many use the screen reader that doesn't
> > > have a
> > > problem with our site changes. It's not our fault if the other
> > > screen
> > > reader can't handle the change. I think they'd have a good point
> > > here.
> > > FS
> > > is not to blame for this problem, but they are completely
> > > responsible for
> > > the fix, in my view. amazon has no obligation to remove an
> > > enhancement to
> > > their site which they obviously feel is worth something to them
> > > and
> > > the
> > > majority of their users. And if you're a JAWS user, the method of
> > > turning
> > > off the virtual cursor, hitting insert+F7 for the list of links,
> > > then
> > > finding the link you need is a quick and easy solution to the
> > > problem
> > > until FS gets things sorted out on their end.
> > >
> > > Bruce
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bruce Toews
> > > E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: DogRiver@xxxxxxxx
> > > Web Site (including info on my weekly commentaries):
> > > http://www.ogts.net
> > > Info on the Best TV Show of All Time: http://www.cornergas.com
> > >
> > > On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Jim Portillo wrote:
> > >
> > > > Howdy,
> > > > Just wondering if there has been any progress with talking to
> > > > the
> > > > Amazon folks.
> > > > I've been making some phone calls, but they just don't seem to
> > > > understand some of the problems we're encountering as blind
> > > > folks,
> > > > because they don't understand about screen reading software.
> > > >
> > > > I have gone to the
> > > > www.amazon.com/access
> > > > site, but that seems very limited because I can't do things
> > > > like
> > > > sell items, look at my account, wish lists, etc.
> > > > If anyone has figured out more or better ways, I'd appreciate
> > > > some
> > > > info.
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > --
> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
> > > subject
> > > line.
> > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >
> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
> > > list, or
> > > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.
> > > Rather
> > > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > --
> > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
> > line.
> > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> >
> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the
> > list,
> > or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.
> > Rather
> > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> --
> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
> line.
> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>
> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,
> or
> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject
line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,
or
the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
the
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact
the
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
the
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact
the
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 11/25/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 11/25/2005
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or
the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
