Re: Any progress on Amazon?
- From: "Yardbird" <yardbird@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:06:18 -0800
hello Bruce and Adrian,
Discussing responsibility in this way is really interesting and fruitful, I
think, as the discussion prods the mind toward clarity and balance about
this (to me, at least) really obnoxious inconvenience. I'll stay out of the
thing about assigning culpability, whether ethical or legal. But it's been
good to have this talked about.
Just bye the bye, this to Adrian who isn't too charmed by fooling around
with turning off the virtual buffer and all that stuff-- I resent having to
resort to such a work-around, too, as it happens): I happened to dropped by
the Barnes & Noble site just to check it out for a couple of items recently,
but I also went to borders,com, where I blundered into a solution I wouldn't
have thought of. I ran a search for a recently published cookbook (The Arab
Table) that I wanted to bring to Thanksgiving dinner as a slightly early (by
three days) birthday gift for the hostess. Well, you know how that went at
Amazon, of course. I'd find the title, click on it, and be taken to
children's Shoes or patio furniture. I will not repeat the tasteless Irish
joke of 20 years ago or so.
But at Borders, I did the search, and, having just noticed something about
borders "partnering" with Amazon, when I clicked on the title, I was taken
onto the Amazon site exactly where I'd meant to go in the first place,
greeted by name, shown the book and reviews, and was able to then order it
in the most regular way, with all my shipping and credit info already on
file, of course. Whew. Nice blunder!
So. Just in case that helps. with books and music, at least.
- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Spratt" <A.Spratt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: Any progress on Amazon?
How we approach access issues is a critical consideration in deciding which
technology problems to solve.
It isn't enough that a blind person can do something without sighted
assistance. We need to accomplish tasks quickly and efficiently to keep up
with sighted colleagues. Today's technology has made us competitive, and we
mustn't let that historic development slip away. You cite 25 seconds as the
extra time required, but you're not counting the time it takes us in the
first place to work out a solution when the answer is intuitive to a sighted
viewer. Also, if I'm not mistaken, you're describing a situation where you
know what you want. I often use Amazon to figure out the best recording,
related books, and so on. If my shopping doesn't start out with a specific
target, the new access limitations hinder me. In fact, they've driven me to
Barnes and Noble, www.bn.com.
There's no clear legal answer, and a certain case hurts both our positions.
But there's an analogy in current developments in environmental law. The
U.S. hasn't agreed to be bound by the Kyoto Treaty, but many U.S.
corporations, including ones that do little or no business abroad, are
upgrading their operations to comply anyway. Market forces and public
relations help explain why. Visually impaired people may be a small market,
but we're focused and have earned much goodwill. Not charity, but goodwill
in the old-fashioned consumer sense.
Besides, FS is under a contractual obligation to make websites accessible to
its users. That's because FS has implied a warranty that JAWS is fit for
the ordinary purposes for which it is sold and used.
We should continue to expect accessibility from Amazon and other websites
and to demand that FS address the deficiency.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Toews" <DogRiver@xxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: Any progress on Amazon?
>I ordered a giftfor an american friend yesterday from amazon.com. Using the
>list-of-links method of ordering the product took me, perhaps, on the
>outside, twenty-five seconds longer than it would have otherwise, thanks to
>first-letter navigation. Part of the problem is that no two blind people
>can agree on what "accessible" means. to me, "accessible" means "can you do
>it without sighted asistance?" Obviously, you subscribe to a different view
>of what accessibility means, which is fine. But what is the legal view?
>
> Bruce
>
> --
> Bruce Toews
> E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: DogRiver@xxxxxxxx
> Web Site (including info on my weekly commentaries): http://www.ogts.net
> Info on the Best TV Show of All Time: http://www.cornergas.com
>
> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Adrian Spratt wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> It's useful to inject a note of realism into how we analyze what we
>> expect from websites and Freedom Scientific. From Amazon's point of
>> view, you make a fair point that the ability of WindowEyes to handle
>> their website suggests that they are meeting minimal web design
>> accessibility standards. However, while we need to be reasonable as JAWS
>> users, we shouldn't take reasonableness to an extreme, if you'll forgive
>> the oxymoron. I don't agree with you that use of the insert-F7 links
>> list command is quick and easy. It is less quick and easy than
>> navigation of the Amazon website was before the recent design change. If
>> WindowEyes were also unable to navigate Amazon, this substitute
>> navigation method would be unacceptable.
>>
>> We must always hold web designers accountable for failures of
>> accessibility. In cases where JAWS cannot properly access a website but
>> Windoweyes can, we must pressure FS for a better and faster response than
>> we are getting here and that we got in the New York Times situation.
>>
>> As an aside, JAWS still provides full access to the UK website, if users
>> are prepared to pay international shipping rates, sometimes offset by
>> some good pricing at that website. In rough terms, 1 pound sterling
>> equals $1.80. Here's the web address:
>> www.amazon.uk.co
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Toews" <DogRiver@xxxxxxxx>
>>
>>
>>> If I'm Amazon, here's what I'm thinking, when I'm thinking about this
>>> at
>>> all. Two major screen readers, one has a problem withour site, another
>>> doesn't. What we did benefits 99.5% of our users, i.e., users with
>>> sight.
>>> Of the remaining people, many use the screen reader that doesn't have a
>>> problem with our site changes. It's not our fault if the other screen
>>> reader can't handle the change. I think they'd have a good point here.
>>> FS
>>> is not to blame for this problem, but they are completely responsible
>>> for
>>> the fix, in my view. amazon has no obligation to remove an enhancement
>>> to
>>> their site which they obviously feel is worth something to them and the
>>> majority of their users. And if you're a JAWS user, the method of
>>> turning
>>> off the virtual cursor, hitting insert+F7 for the list of links, then
>>> finding the link you need is a quick and easy solution to the problem
>>> until FS gets things sorted out on their end.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bruce Toews
>>> E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: DogRiver@xxxxxxxx
>>> Web Site (including info on my weekly commentaries):
>>> http://www.ogts.net
>>> Info on the Best TV Show of All Time: http://www.cornergas.com
>>>
>>> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Jim Portillo wrote:
>>>
>>> > Howdy,
>>> > Just wondering if there has been any progress with talking to the
>>> > Amazon folks.
>>> > I've been making some phone calls, but they just don't seem to
>>> > understand some of the problems we're encountering as blind folks,
>>> > because they don't understand about screen reading software.
>>> >
>>> > I have gone to the
>>> > www.amazon.com/access
>>> > site, but that seems very limited because I can't do things like sell
>>> > items, look at my account, wish lists, etc.
>>> > If anyone has figured out more or better ways, I'd appreciate some
>>> > info.
>>> > Jim
>>> >
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