[jaws-uk] Re: Was RE: Re: Problems with newer programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
- From: "Jim Williams" <jwbr33694@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 21:34:20 +0100
Hi Keith,
Just read your reply. Yes, I'm usingJAWS 13 as well.
Again, I notice that Outlook seems to be more stable if you
close it down and re-enter. I thought someone else bought
this issue up a couple of months ago but as I wasn't using
Office 2010 at the time I ignored the details.
Lets hope someone out there is listening.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keith
Sent: 19 April 2012 15:38
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Was RE: Re: Problems with newer
programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
Hi Jim,
Not Tristram, I'm afraid, but I, too, have problems with
Office 2010 Outlook.
I am using the latest build of Jaws 13, by the way.
After switching on the computer, I always have to go into
Outlook a second time for things to display correctly. I
usually get nothing at all the first time I open Outlook.
Tris, any ideas why this should be, please?
With best wishes,
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim
Williams
Sent: 19 April 2012 15:09
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Was RE: Re: Problems with newer
programmes eg Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
Hi Tristram,
I've recently installed Office 2010 on my computer, still
retaining Office 2003.
All seems to behaving ok apart from Outlook 2010 e-mails.
When I get new messages all I hear JAWS 13 say is "Unread",
with no information on who the message is from, subject line
or another info.
As mentioned I still have Office 2003 on the machine and I
can revert to those programmes if necessary, all except for
Outlook 2003. That has disappeared off my system so I have
no fall back in event of problems.
Any solutions?
Jim Williams
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tristram
Llewellyn
Sent: 19 April 2012 14:14
To: 'jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg
Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
Some consolation is that Window 7 is likely to be the new XP
and will be kicking around for a good while. The Office
ribbon affair is a more bitter pill but the ribbon is not
going away Microsoft and a majority of users seem to find it
works for them. In my view there isn't a more efficient way
of driving Office programs other than the deep level
keyboard shortcuts like
control+whatever
control+shift+whatever etc. Then leave the ribbon stuff for
the stuff that is not covered by those deep level shortcuts.
We are getting to the stage with Office 2003 that we had
with Office 2000 some years ago now in that it is beginning
to fade into the legacy. If you can use it successfully
with your version of JAWS or an earlier one great go ahead
with that but as time goes by this may become progressively
less practical.
You can get information about keystrokes from this part of
the Microsoft
empire:
http://www.microsoft.com/enable/products/keyboard.aspx
Regards.
Tristram Llewellyn
Technical Support
Sight and Sound Technology
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Graham
Page
Sent: 19 April 2012 11:18
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg
Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
It's getting harder to find machines and anyway, I think
training people on older equipment just to then make them
learn something totally different is likely to be the wrong
approach.
If the person who you are training becomes really competent
and finds that he or she actually quite enjoys dabbling
about with computers and is happy to learn extra things,
then this could be a good approach.
If however the person uses the computer but purely relies on
it to get things done and is not happy to experiment then
this would just be confusing.
I have also found over the years, not surprisingly, that the
people who gain most from computer training are those who
have access to a computer outside class. It is increasingly
likely that this will be a computer running Office 2007 or
later and windows 7.
It's also hard enough developing training courses and
supporting users of one version of an operating system and
one version of office within a college environment, so
having 2 versions of office just leeds to unnecessary work.
Regards
Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tiddy Ogg
Sent: 18 April 2012 19:16
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg
Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
Belinda, just, as you say, once the basics are learned, then
you can go on to short cut keys etc, is it possible to train
your clients on a machine still using older versions of
Windows? Surely, you can find some source of old programs.
Many of us are still using XP or earlier, and versions of
Office going back to 2002 or before.
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Belinda P
Sent: 18 April 2012 15:56
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg
Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
Hi Graham and Ian and all,
I'd like to back up what Graham said with some more
thoughts.
In the past (up to Office 2003, ie before the ribbon) with
Word and many other Microsoft programmes it was really very
easy to teach new users the basics so they could be working
on their own quite quickly.
As most things
were accessible through the menu bar you only had to teach
someone a few things for them to be able to do a lot, EG:
Alt to get to the menu bar, then right-left arrows to move
through each item
(File, Edit etc) and then up/down arrows to move through the
options in the
drop down menus. This way the user didn't actually have to
memorise any
shortcut keys, and it was clear and easy and logical. They
could learn more
shortcuts for faster access (eg Control s for save) as they
went along, and this was easy to do as the shortcut was
listed on the menu item.
The new ribbon system has completely changed this whole way
of working and removed the ease and simplicity. I know that
many many people absolutely hate the ribbon, not just Jaws
users, but huge numbers of sighted users too.
Yes, I'm sure that it is possible to learn it, and I'm sure
there are many people who think it's great, but different
people work and learn in different ways and it seems me that
the old programmes could cater for these
different people. They had icons for the mouse users, and
menus for keyboard users or those that prefer to see things
in lists rather than
pictures and diagrams scattered around the screen. This
has now changed
and it seems to me that everyone is being forced into one
way of working.
Graham says that Windows 8 will be even more different, so I
fear that it will bring many more problems and complaints.
Belinda
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Page
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:09 PM
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg
Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
Hello Ian.
I think there is plenty of evidence out there that key
strokes are far from intuitive.
There are menny examples but let's take a commonly used
one.
To access the current message in Outlook 2007 in a browser,
you press alt h followed by x then v.
Alt h takes you to messages. No h anywhere in messages.
X then takes you to actions, no x in actions, though V for
view in browser works.
The point is that short cut keys have become rather
unintuitive.
Then when using ribbons, once you get to the lower ribbon,
the controls are a mess of buttons, split buttons, check
boxes and drop down lists. I know FS has produced the
virtual ribbon but that is a rather screenreader specific
thing.
I would be very interested to hear how you would go about
directing a new computer user to use the ribbon. I have
found that in general the only way is to teach short cut
keys for those functions that are most used such as f7 for
spell check, control n for new message or control o for
opening a new document but this is not really ideal and it
does not give the new user a full picture.
Regards
Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Iain
Lackie
Sent: 18 April 2012 13:23
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg
Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
I'm still not encountering problems with Windows Live Mail
and JAWS. With any change, there is a learning curve. I
wonder if people aren't willing to take sufficient time to
learn. Freedom Scientific have obviusly taken the
difficulties people were having with the ribbon as they have
introduced to JAWS the Virtual Ribbon view. It is my belief
that there is a lot of expression of the view that certain
programs don't work as well with JAWS which is expressed at
second hand and is not in fact the case. I expect that
having expressed this view, lots of flak will come flying my
way.
Iain
-----Original Message-----
From: Belinda P
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:25 PM
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Problems with newer programmes eg
Win7, Office 2010, WLM etc
This message follows on from the jaws and WLM discussion
really, but is a wider subject than just about WLM.
I am not a Jaws user myself (I teach people to use it, hence
being on this list), but I do like to use the keyboard a
lot, rather than the mouse as I find it so much quicker to
do most things. What I feel is that older programmes worked
so much better with the keyboard than newer programs.
Windows XP, Office 2003, Outlook Express for example, these
all worked really well using the keyboard, and were quite
easy to teach to Jaws users.
Now though - with Vista, Windows 7, Office 2007/10, Windows
Live Mail etc - it has become a lot harder to use the
keyboard with these programmes, and therefore a lot harder
to teach. And what I notice is that people say there are
problems with Jaws working with these programmes (at least
at first, until Freedom Scientific sort it out). So isn't
it a problem with the way the programmes are written and
designed, rather than with Jaws? Shouldn't we be feeding
back to Microsoft about the way these programmes are written
these days?
I hope I'm making some sense, I'm finding it a bit hard to
put this into words. What do people think?
Belinda
-----Original Message-----
From: Husna Begum
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:07 PM
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: jaws and wlm - or Thunderbird
but what i want to know is how comes jaws doesn't support
wlm etc fully, it's been out for 3 years or something. the
support should not be still patchy after all this time.
Husna
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bailes
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:28 AM
To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: jaws and wlm - or Thunderbird
Hi Belinda,
Mozilla thunderbird is an alternative to windows live mail.
Unfortunately, both programs have accessiblity problems, and
problems with Jaws support.
David.
original message:
What about Mozilla Thunderbird? Is that an alternative to
Windows Live Mail?
Belinda
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