[isapros] Re: SMTP Filter

  • From: Jason Jones <Jason.Jones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:52:44 +0000

Dude, yep I do listen, but it just don't make sense - nothing personal!

I do appreciate everyone's comments, otherwise I wouldn't post to the list so 
often, so wipe those tears matey :)

I know you are probably right, but just need to prove it or get my head around 
it...

________________________________________
From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
Thor (Hammer of God) [thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 27 February 2008 20:12
To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter

Dude - I posted several times that ISA doesn't send those errors back...
What, you only listen to Jim and Tom?? [sniff!]

;)
t

> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-
> bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:26 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
>
> I do love your 'no compromise' view on things sometimes Tom! :)
>
> I can't disagree, but sometimes customers are customers...it's hard
> enough to get Microsoft solutions into these types environments let
> alone 'rip and replace' all of the existing stuff.
>
> Anyhow, we are digressing here...so the upshot is that ISA *isn't*
> sending the 421 error, so this must be Exchange?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-
> bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
> Sent: 27 February 2008 15:20
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
>
> OK, so the answer is to remove the extraneous freeware relay in front
> of
> the Exchange relay. Why do they need two relays, one of which appears
> to
> be non-RFC and is causing problems because it wants to relay spam?
>
> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> Site: www.isaserver.org
> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:16 AM
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> >
> > Actually, the Exchange SMTP servers *are* on an anonymous
> > access DMZ behind ISA. All communications from the Unix mail
> > relays are then server published, SMTP filtered and source
> > restricted to the servers on the anon DMZ.
> >
> > So what we really have is:
> >
> > Internet => Unix Mail Relays on untrusted network => ISA =>
> > Exchange SMTP mail relays on anon access DMZ => Exchange
> > Backend Servers on ISA protected network.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
> > Sent: 27 February 2008 15:10
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> >
> > OK, so this is a simple borked network design. The SMTP relay is
> > supposed to be on a anonymous DMZ segment *behind* the ISA firewall.
> > That completely fixes the problem and also fixes the borked network
> > security design.
> >
> > :)
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > Site: www.isaserver.org
> > Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> > MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:06 AM
> > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> > >
> > > No, just meant to represent any old mail server on the Internet.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thomas W
Shinder
> > > Sent: 27 February 2008 15:04
> > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> > >
> > > Are the remote mail relays the customer's?
> > >
> > > Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > > Site: www.isaserver.org
> > > Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > > Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> > > MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:57 AM
> > > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> > > >
> > > > e.g. Remote Mail Relays => Internet => Internal Unix Mail
> > > > Relays => ISA => Exchange
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > > > Sent: 27 February 2008 14:51
> > > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> > > >
> > > > It forces the Unix relays to queue all subsequent email once
> > > > it happens. Hence they get backlogs on the mail relays...
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thomas
> > W Shinder
> > > > Sent: 27 February 2008 14:49
> > > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jason,
> > > >
> > > > What I don't get is why they care if some spammer's
> > > computer gets its
> > > > queue loaded up when it tries to send spam to their
> > Exchange Server
> > > > behind the ISA Firewall.
> > > >
> > > > What am I missing here?
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > > >
> > > > Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > > > Site: www.isaserver.org
> > > > Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > > > Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> > > > MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:45 AM
> > > > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> > > > >
> > > > > They won't allow me to disable the SMTP filter at this time
> > > > > as they are not sure if the Unix servers can provide the same
> > > > > level of application-level protection, how ironic :)
> > > > >
> > > > > I get alerts in the monitoring section of the ISA console
> > > > > when it happens - from what I understand the CR CR . CR CR is
> > > > > contained within the message body of rogue (spam) messages.
> > > > >
> > > > > If ISA doesn't respond with the SMTP error code, I guess this
> > > > > must be Exchange - but surely ISA had prevented this
> > connection???
> > > > >
> > > > > I have tested it manually or personally...if you want more
> > > > > details the guy has posted on some sendmail forums here:
> > > > > http://www.webservertalk.com/message2285500.html
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor
> > > > > (Hammer of God)
> > > > > Sent: 27 February 2008 14:18
> > > > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> > > > >
> > > > > You've directly connected to the SMTP server via ISA
> > and manually
> > > > > entered the character sequence to verify this?  With the
> > > SMTP filter
> > > > > applied, I don't get this error.  Further, like I said last
> > > > time, you
> > > > > don't get SMTP error messages when the filter trigger
> > > terminates the
> > > > > connection - it just terminates.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I'm assuming you've disabled the SMTP filter and
> > > > everything works?
> > > > >
> > > > > t
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-
> > > > > > bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 3:08 AM
> > > > > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Feedback:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Absolutely.  And that's why "<CR>.<CR>" should just be
> passed
> > > > > straight
> > > > > > through like any other random sequence of characters, and
> > > > not cause
> > > > > the
> > > > > > session to abort with a  "Syntax error" ..."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me know if this is pushing the boundaries of the
> > > > > mailing list and
> > > > > I
> > > > > > will get them to log a PSS call. If not, keep posting!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jason Jones | Security | Silversands Limited | Desk:
> > +44 (0)1202
> > > > > 360489
> > > > > > | Mobile: +44 (0)7971 500312 | Email/MSN:
> > > > > jason.jones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-
> > > > > > bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> > > > > > Sent: 26 February 2008 22:55
> > > > > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tell them I said to read RFC 2821:
> > > > > > http://rfc.net/rfc2821.html#s4.1.1.4
> > > > > > <quote>
> > > > > > The mail data is terminated by a line containing only a
> > > > period, that
> > > > > >    is, the character sequence "<CRLF>.<CRLF>"
> > > > > > </quote>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They didn't say "something almost, but not quite
> > totally unlike
> > > > > > <CRLF>.<CRLF>".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-
> > > > > > bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:02 PM
> > > > > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's more background below. From what I can tell the
> > > only way to
> > > > > > prevent this is to disable the SMTP filter for the
> > > publishing rule
> > > > > that
> > > > > > provide access from the Unix mail relays to Exchange. I was
> > > > > hoping for
> > > > > > something a little more granular but can't see how to do
> > > > this in the
> > > > > > GUI.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -------
> > > > > > If Unix forwards a message to ISA / Exchange terminated
> > > > > with  "CR CR .
> > > > > > CR CR"   the ISA smtp filter drops the connection and
> > > > returns a 421
> > > > > > 5.5.2  error, (rather than dropping/rejecting the message)
> > > > > this causes
> > > > > > the mail queues on the Unix servers to back-up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it possible to change the status code ISA Returns to a
> more
> > > > > > appropriate code, or otherwise ignore this check?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The email below explains in  a bit more detail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Okay, so it's ISA not Exchange, but ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We are getting messages stuck in our queues on their way
into
> > > > > Exchange.
> > > > > > The ISA server replies with
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 421 5.5.2 Syntax error (invalid DATA termination)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and the messages are held with
> > > > > >
> > > > > > xxx@xxxxxx Deferred: 421 5.5.2 Syntax error (invalid DATA
> > > > > termination)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a problem, since it is interpreted as a
> > temporary server
> > > > > > failure and a request to try again later, effectively
> > > blocking all
> > > > > > further mail to that server on that queue run, and
> > > > leaving a backlog
> > > > > of
> > > > > > messages in the queue.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now the Microsoft site says that means
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "SMTP filter encountered an invalid DATA terminator
> > > Some character
> > > > > > combinations in DATA may pose a security risk. The
> > > > > connection has been
> > > > > > terminated.
> > > > > > SMTP filter event
> > > > > > Invalid DATA termination"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And it appears the cause is the occurrence of
> > > > > >
> > > > > > CR CR . CR CR
> > > > > >
> > > > > > in the message, accepted and passed on by our
> > > > > sendmail-based relays .
> > > > > > It appears that ISA will not accept this, and returns a 421
> > > > > response,
> > > > > > meaning try again later.  This seems wrong, since it is not
a
> > > > > temporary
> > > > > > failure, and the message will never be delivered. Surely
> > > > the correct
> > > > > > thing to do is either accept the message, or reject it with
a
> > > > > permanent
> > > > > > failure so that the sender can be notified.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there any way to disable or modify this behaviour
> > > within ISA ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-
> > > > > > bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> > > > > > Sent: 26 February 2008 17:58
> > > > > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Subject: [isapros] Re: SMTP Filter
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What - you want to add the \r\r.\r\r in the filter
> > definitions?
> > > > > > Is this sequence sent with or without actual mail content?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-
> > > > > > bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 9:37 AM
> > > > > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Subject: [isapros] SMTP Filter
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there any way to modify the ISA SMTP filter behaviour
> > > > outside of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > GUI?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We have a customer who is getting a weird error from the
> > > > SMTP filter
> > > > > > when the *data* portion contains "CR CR . CR CR". The
> > > > > problem  is that
> > > > > > instead of rejecting the connection, as I would have
> > > expected, the
> > > > > > filter returns a 421 error, which essentially means
> > > "syntax error
> > > > > > (invalid data termination), try again later" causing a
> > > > > backlog on the
> > > > > > upstream SMTP server.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am guessing this is a log with PSS job to determine if
> > > > > the behaviour
> > > > > > is a bug, or by design...just wondered in anyone had
> > any similar
> > > > > > experiences or thoughts?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JJ
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >   ________________________________
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> > > > copy of which is available on request. Any pricing
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> > > > Any view or opinions presented are solely those of the author
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> > > > Company Registration Number : 2141393.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
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> > > Desk immediately on 01202 360360 or email
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> > >
> > > If this email contains a quotation then unless otherwise
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> > > Silversands Professional Services Terms and Conditions, a
> > > copy of which is available on request. Any pricing
> > > information, design information or information concerning
> > > specific Silversands' staff contained in this email is
> > > considered confidential or of commercial interest and exempt
> > > from the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
> > >
> > > Any view or opinions presented are solely those of the author
> > > and do not necessarily represent those of Silversands
> > >
> > > Silversands Limited, 3 Albany Park, Cabot Lane, Poole, BH17 7BX.
> > > Company Registration Number : 2141393.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
> > and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it
> > is addressed.  If you have received this email in error, or
> > if you believe this email is unsolicited and wish to be
> > removed from any future mailings, please contact our Support
> > Desk immediately on 01202 360360 or email helpdesk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > If this email contains a quotation then unless otherwise
> > stated it is valid for 7 days and offered subject to
> > Silversands Professional Services Terms and Conditions, a
> > copy of which is available on request. Any pricing
> > information, design information or information concerning
> > specific Silversands' staff contained in this email is
> > considered confidential or of commercial interest and exempt
> > from the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
> >
> > Any view or opinions presented are solely those of the author
> > and do not necessarily represent those of Silversands
> >
> > Silversands Limited, 3 Albany Park, Cabot Lane, Poole, BH17 7BX.
> > Company Registration Number : 2141393.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed.
> If you have received this email in error, or if you believe this email
> is unsolicited and wish to be removed from any future mailings, please
> contact our Support Desk immediately on 01202 360360 or email
> helpdesk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> If this email contains a quotation then unless otherwise stated it is
> valid for 7 days and offered subject to Silversands Professional
> Services Terms and Conditions, a copy of which is available on
request.
> Any pricing information, design information or information concerning
> specific Silversands' staff contained in this email is considered
> confidential or of commercial interest and exempt from the Freedom of
> Information Act 2000.
>
> Any view or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do
> not necessarily represent those of Silversands
>
> Silversands Limited, 3 Albany Park, Cabot Lane, Poole, BH17 7BX.
> Company Registration Number : 2141393.
>

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended 
solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed.  If you have 
received this email in error, or if you believe this email is unsolicited and 
wish to be removed from any future mailings, please contact our Support Desk 
immediately on 01202 360360 or email helpdesk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

If this email contains a quotation then unless otherwise stated it is valid for 
7 days and offered subject to Silversands Professional Services Terms and 
Conditions, a copy of which is available on request. Any pricing information, 
design information or information concerning specific Silversands' staff 
contained in this email is considered confidential or of commercial interest 
and exempt from the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

Any view or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not 
necessarily represent those of Silversands

Silversands Limited, 3 Albany Park, Cabot Lane, Poole, BH17 7BX.
Company Registration Number : 2141393.


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