[isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
- From: "Thomas W Shinder" <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:04:25 -0600
Debi gave me one for Valentine's day :)
Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
Site: www.isaserver.org
Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Moffat
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 5:27 PM
> To: ISAPros Mailing List
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Tim's got it....
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: ISAPros Mailing List
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Do I need to use a User Certificate or Machine Certificate?
>
> I can't find the "Client Certificate" template
>
> :-p
>
> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> Site: www.isaserver.org
> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 2:51 AM
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > At last, some feedback from MS...
> >
> > http://blogs.msdn.com/ameltzer/archive/2008/02/14/firewalls-an
> > d-internet-based-client-management-part-2-isa-bridging.aspx
> >
> > It seems I was pretty much spot on in my final config!
> >
> > Personally, I like the idea of creating machine based subject
> > names (UPN format) and then creating fake computer accounts -
> > this seems more logical as SCCM is based around machine
> > management and not user management.
> >
> > Jim => Will try to test the KCD stuff later...
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > JJ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> > Sent: 14 February 2008 21:23
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Of course...
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:38 AM
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Ok, will give it a try...you keen to know the result?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> > Sent: 14 February 2008 17:03
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > If you ditch the client certs requirement, you can test KCD.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:57 AM
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Nope, SCCM web instance at default and "require client
> certs" enabled.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> > Sent: 13 February 2008 18:08
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Actually, I'd be surprised to learn that KCD works for
> > non-user accounts.
> > Did you remove "require client certificates" from the SCCM
> > web instance?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:51 AM
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > P.S. I also had to make sure the certificate on the SCCM
> > management point had the external FQDN as the CN and first
> > SAN to avoid the current issue with ISA and SAN certs ;-)
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: 13 February 2008 16:35
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Well.....................it does work!!! :-) mucho :-)
> >
> > I had to use the online CA, and use a new template that
> > allows the subject name to be defined in the request and the
> > cert private key to be exported. I then used
> > homepc$@domain.com in the cert requests subject line and
> > exported the cert onto the client. I then added a fake
> > computer object to the domain called homepc$. Once these were
> > both done, ISA was then able to authenticate the client cert,
> > and I got one step closer...hurrah!
> >
> > However, I can't get KCD to work, but think this is more an
> > issue with SCCM than ISA, as everything looks right and I
> > don't get and KCD alerts (which you normally get when it is
> > wrong!). If I use the bridging option to specify ISAs own
> > client cert I have a fully working setup. I think this
> > actually now makes sense based upon how SCCM works.
> >
> > To tie this down even more, I have then created a group
> > called 'SCCM Internet clients' and added homepc$, then
> > configured the web pubs rule to use this group.
> >
> > So, unless I am mistaken we now have the following scenario:
> >
> > * ISA pre-auth'ing all clients based upon their client
> > certificates, no cert, no dice! (I like preauth)
> > * ISA is in reverse web proxy and can HTTP inspect all
> > traffic (will tie down allowed verbs as next step)
> > * ISA SSL bridges to SCCM management point and provides it's
> > own client auth cert to satisfy the MP
> > * SCCM client specifies a special GUID in the packets (as I
> > have now found out) so the cert provided by ISA is not
> > actually used to identify the client, just to setup the
> > mutual TLS session.
> >
> > This looks sooooo MUCH better than server publishing to me ;-)
> >
> > Thanks to Jim (again) for the crucial "next step" link!
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > JJ
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> > Sent: 13 February 2008 15:19
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Actually, in re-examining the idea, there is no UPN for a
> > computer account (and no place I can see to add one).
> > It'll take some playing to find out if it can work and if so, how.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 3:19 AM
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Ok, this seems to make sense - need to have a look at see how
> > achievable it is. The best practice for issuing client
> > certificates for Internet SCCM clients is to use a standalone
> > CA (as they are not part of AD), so I guessing this options
> > is not workable - correct?
> >
> > If I **can** just get ISA to validate the certs, I should
> > then just be able to KCD them to the IIS server - yes?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> > Sent: 09 February 2008 02:27
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Here's one for Tim to shoot down:
> >
> > Since machine auth certificates are built by default using
> > DNS names (subj = "CN=host.domain.tld", SAN = "DNS
> > Name=host.domain.tld") and not UPN ("account@xxxxxxxxxx"),
> > it's impossible for Windows to resolve the cert to an
> > account. You could try using certreq (supp tools) to build a
> > machine cert that uses UPN format (machine$@domain.tld) in
> > the subject and/or SAN (you'll probably have to play a bit)
> > and include "domain\domain computers" in an ISA "Windows user
> > group". ..all speculation, of course...
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:23 AM
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Right, done a little more testing (playing) with this and
> > here are my findings, I think I got the skinny on this, but a
> > sanity check would be good :)
> >
> > Option 1: Use Server Publishing
> >
> > Results - SCCM client can authenticate to IIS on the SCCM
> > management point using it's own personal client certificate
> > and be fully managed, deployed with software/patches etc.
> >
> > Pros - Everything works
> > Cons - Not ideal and ISA isn't adding a lot of value here as
> > having to use Server publishing.
> >
> > Option 2: Use Web Publishing without KCD
> >
> > Results - I can only get this to work by configuring the ISA
> > listener for no auth and then use the "use a client cert to
> > authenticate to the SSL web server" option on the bridging
> > tab. If enable the "SSL client auth" option on the web
> > listener, ISA attempts to validate the certificate with AD,
> > HOWEVER the client certs are issued to Internet clients who
> > are not members of AD and hence have no validity with AD.
> > Hence ISA gives a 401 error, kinda as expected.
> >
> > Pros - Everything works and ISA **can** inspect the HTTP requests
> > Cons - We have no way of authenticating external clients and
> > they all appear to "hide" behind the ISA Server client
> > certificate. This means any SCCM client, even without a
> > client cert, can connect as ISA will perform the actual
> > client auth request by the internal IIS server on the
> > management point. This seems unworkable from what I can tell
> > as SCCM will only ever see one client...
> >
> > Option 3: Use Web Publishing with KCD
> >
> > Results - As ISA cannot validate the client certificate with
> > AD, we don't even get a chance to perform delegation to the
> > IIS server on the SCCM management point. Hence this option is
> > a non-starter.
> >
> > Cons - Fundamentally flawed :-) (I think)
> >
> > Does all of this look correct or have I missed some options
> > or misunderstood something?
> >
> > From my understanding FOR THIS PARTICULUAR SCENARIO, I have
> > no choice but to accept defeat and go for server publishing???
> >
> > As ever, thanks for any input/comments...
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > JJ
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> > Sent: 02 February 2008 15:17
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Yes; that makes sense.
> > It's a shame that there is no good way to do this but that's
> > the benefit of client-cert auth; MITM is very difficult to perform.
> >
> > Something to note about this process; any "SSL inspection"
> > methodology is going to break client cert auth. This is
> > equally true of the BlueCoat & ClearTunnel offerings. Once
> > you crack the SSL channel, the certs have to be "mimicked" to
> > each side. This is how they both work - by "reissuing" the
> > server certificate and terminating the SSL session at the
> > proxy so that the internal traffic can be inspected.
> > While it's relatively simple to use your proxy as an
> > intermediate CA because you can define a trust for it to your
> > users, doing so for the Internet folks is much more difficult
> > (and expensive!). They have to trust your proxy as an
> > intermediate CA if your "reissued" client cert is to be
> > worthwhile. Odds are, this just ain't happening.
> >
> > I can't speak to any future plans here (obviously), but I'm
> > not a personal fan of Cardspace. Perhaps some more research
> > will ease my concerns...
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stefaan Pouseele
> > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 2:19 AM
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > maybe I should rephrase my statement in order to clarify
> > better what I mean.
> >
> >
> > Whenever the application insist on the client cert itself
> > then nothing much
> > you can do but using server publishing. A classic example I
> > encounter every
> > day is the use of the Belgium e-ID to authenticate to a web
> > application. In
> > this scenario you can't use delegation or user mapping at all
> > because the
> > users aren't known beforehand. Moreover, in many cases the
> > application must
> > be able to read some stuff out of the e-ID. In short, a
> > number of reasons
> > why pre-authentication isn't possible and therefore SSL bridging.
> >
> > I wonder how 'Windows Cardspace' or in more general terms
> 'Information
> > Cards' and 'WS-*' can/will cooperate in a pre-authentication
> > scenario with
> > ISA server?
> >
> > Kindly,
> > Stefaan
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> > Sent: vrijdag 1 februari 2008 19:58
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > I'm actually very surprised you take this position.
> > If ISA can terminate the SSL session (required for ISA to
> > handle client
> > certs), then you can apply the HTTP smarts ISA brings for the table.
> > Server publishing SSL can't accomplish this.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf Of Stefaan Pouseele
> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:41 AM
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> > Hi Jason,
> >
> >
> >
> > my reasoning, whenever client certs are involved, use server
> > publishing.
> > Nothing ISA can do to enhance the security.
> >
> >
> >
> > HTH,
> >
> > Stefaan
> >
> >
> >
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: vrijdag 1 februari 2008 16:49
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> >
> >
> > Any more thoughts on this?
> >
> >
> >
> > From what I now understand, the SCCM client is using a client
> > auth cert to
> > authenticate to the IIS instance running on the SCCM
> management point
> > (mutual cert auth).
> >
> >
> >
> > We are getting close to SCCM deployments where customers
> > want IBCM, but the
> > only ISA Server solution I can get working is to use SSL
> > tunnelling (server
> > publishing). I have tried various web publishing
> > configurations and none of
> > them seem to work - I have tried the following:
> >
> >
> >
> > * Simple web publishing , ISA listener with no
> > authentication and
> > "allow client to authenticate" defined in the delegation tab
> > - assumed this
> > would just use pass-through auth to the IIS website to allow
> > for this to do
> > the client auth.
> >
> > * Pre-auth web publishing, ISA listener using client
> > cert auth and
> > then KCD to delegate to IIS.
> >
> >
> >
> > Do we think that one of these should work, or is web
> > publishing for SCCM
> > IBCM fundamentally flawed?
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyone actually got it working??? I know SCCM is quite new,
> > but are we just
> > too ahead of the curve here?
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> >
> > JJ
> >
> >
> >
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: 19 October 2007 08:50
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi t,
> >
> >
> >
> > I was hoping to do the former and then use KCD, but from what
> > I gather SCCM
> > is using computer based certs - I believe this makes things
> > harder?. Not
> > really comes across this scenario before...I currently have
> > it working in
> > the lab using server publishing, but I cannot bear the
> > thought of doing this
> > for customers...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God)
> > Sent: 18 October 2007 22:15
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> >
> >
> > While I've not used SCCM, I've done a good bit of work with
> different
> > certificate-based authentication models. Are you
> considering using a
> > web-listener configured for SSL Client Certificate
> > Authentication, or just
> > web-publishing to a back-end web server where it will do its own
> > certificate-to-user mapping?
> >
> >
> >
> > t
> >
> >
> >
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 1:11 PM
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> >
> >
> > Did this Q get hidden within Amy's posts or is it a big fat
> > "don't know"? J
> >
> >
> >
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf Of Jason Jones
> > Sent: 17 October 2007 00:49
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> > Has anyone used ISA with System Centre Configuration Manager
> > (SCCM) yet?
> > Specifically when using Native mode (e.g. full-on PKI mode).
> >
> >
> >
> > The initial documentation is a little patchy and seems to
> > contradict itself
> > between using Web Publishing and Server Publishing when using
> > Internet based
> > clients that cannot back into the CM server. The SCCM
> > documentation talks
> > about lots of perimeter and internet-facing scenarios, but I
> > want to try and
> > use an ISA based model in a similar way to protecting Exchange or
> > SharePoint. A quote from Jim comes to mind "..we don't need
> > no stinking
> > DMZs"
> >
> >
> >
> > Ideally I want to use Web Publishing, but all communications
> > in SCCM utilise
> > client certificate based authentication.
> >
> >
> >
> > Am I right in thinking I can use ISA Web publishing combined
> > with KCD to
> > secure access from CM clients to the CM server?
> >
> >
> >
> > Answers that tell me that I have to use Server Publishing
> > will make me cry,
> > so please be sensitive
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance...
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> >
> > JJ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> > and do not necessarily represent those of Silversands
> >
> > Silversands Limited, 3 Albany Park, Cabot Lane, Poole, BH17 7BX.
> > Company Registration Number : 2141393.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
> > and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it
> > is addressed. If you have received this email in error, or
> > if you believe this email is unsolicited and wish to be
> > removed from any future mailings, please contact our Support
> > Desk immediately on 01202 360360 or email helpdesk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > If this email contains a quotation then unless otherwise
> > stated it is valid for 7 days and offered subject to
> > Silversands Professional Services Terms and Conditions, a
> > copy of which is available on request. Any pricing
> > information, design information or information concerning
> > specific Silversands' staff contained in this email is
> > considered confidential or of commercial interest and exempt
> > from the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
> >
> > Any view or opinions presented are solely those of the author
> > and do not necessarily represent those of Silversands
> >
> > Silversands Limited, 3 Albany Park, Cabot Lane, Poole, BH17 7BX.
> > Company Registration Number : 2141393.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
> > and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it
> > is addressed. If you have received this email in error, or
> > if you believe this email is unsolicited and wish to be
> > removed from any future mailings, please contact our Support
> > Desk immediately on 01202 360360 or email helpdesk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > If this email contains a quotation then unless otherwise
> > stated it is valid for 7 days and offered subject to
> > Silversands Professional Services Terms and Conditions, a
> > copy of which is available on request. Any pricing
> > information, design information or information concerning
> > specific Silversands' staff contained in this email is
> > considered confidential or of commercial interest and exempt
> > from the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
> >
> > Any view or opinions presented are solely those of the author
> > and do not necessarily represent those of Silversands
> >
> > Silversands Limited, 3 Albany Park, Cabot Lane, Poole, BH17 7BX.
> > Company Registration Number : 2141393.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
> > and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it
> > is addressed. If you have received this email in error, or
> > if you believe this email is unsolicited and wish to be
> > removed from any future mailings, please contact our Support
> > Desk immediately on 01202 360360 or email helpdesk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > If this email contains a quotation then unless otherwise
> > stated it is valid for 7 days and offered subject to
> > Silversands Professional Services Terms and Conditions, a
> > copy of which is available on request. Any pricing
> > information, design information or information concerning
> > specific Silversands' staff contained in this email is
> > considered confidential or of commercial interest and exempt
> > from the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
> >
> > Any view or opinions presented are solely those of the author
> > and do not necessarily represent those of Silversands
> >
> > Silversands Limited, 3 Albany Park, Cabot Lane, Poole, BH17 7BX.
> > Company Registration Number : 2141393.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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