[isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
- From: Steve Moffat <steve@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: ISAPros Mailing List <isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:27:06 -0400
Tim's got it....
-----Original Message-----
From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 11:31 AM
To: ISAPros Mailing List
Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
Do I need to use a User Certificate or Machine Certificate?
I can't find the "Client Certificate" template
:-p
Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
Site: www.isaserver.org
Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 2:51 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> At last, some feedback from MS...
>
> http://blogs.msdn.com/ameltzer/archive/2008/02/14/firewalls-an
> d-internet-based-client-management-part-2-isa-bridging.aspx
>
> It seems I was pretty much spot on in my final config!
>
> Personally, I like the idea of creating machine based subject
> names (UPN format) and then creating fake computer accounts -
> this seems more logical as SCCM is based around machine
> management and not user management.
>
> Jim => Will try to test the KCD stuff later...
>
> Cheers
>
> JJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: 14 February 2008 21:23
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Of course...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:38 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Ok, will give it a try...you keen to know the result?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: 14 February 2008 17:03
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> If you ditch the client certs requirement, you can test KCD.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:57 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Nope, SCCM web instance at default and "require client certs" enabled.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: 13 February 2008 18:08
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Actually, I'd be surprised to learn that KCD works for
> non-user accounts.
> Did you remove "require client certificates" from the SCCM
> web instance?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:51 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> P.S. I also had to make sure the certificate on the SCCM
> management point had the external FQDN as the CN and first
> SAN to avoid the current issue with ISA and SAN certs ;-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: 13 February 2008 16:35
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Well.....................it does work!!! :-) mucho :-)
>
> I had to use the online CA, and use a new template that
> allows the subject name to be defined in the request and the
> cert private key to be exported. I then used
> homepc$@domain.com in the cert requests subject line and
> exported the cert onto the client. I then added a fake
> computer object to the domain called homepc$. Once these were
> both done, ISA was then able to authenticate the client cert,
> and I got one step closer...hurrah!
>
> However, I can't get KCD to work, but think this is more an
> issue with SCCM than ISA, as everything looks right and I
> don't get and KCD alerts (which you normally get when it is
> wrong!). If I use the bridging option to specify ISAs own
> client cert I have a fully working setup. I think this
> actually now makes sense based upon how SCCM works.
>
> To tie this down even more, I have then created a group
> called 'SCCM Internet clients' and added homepc$, then
> configured the web pubs rule to use this group.
>
> So, unless I am mistaken we now have the following scenario:
>
> * ISA pre-auth'ing all clients based upon their client
> certificates, no cert, no dice! (I like preauth)
> * ISA is in reverse web proxy and can HTTP inspect all
> traffic (will tie down allowed verbs as next step)
> * ISA SSL bridges to SCCM management point and provides it's
> own client auth cert to satisfy the MP
> * SCCM client specifies a special GUID in the packets (as I
> have now found out) so the cert provided by ISA is not
> actually used to identify the client, just to setup the
> mutual TLS session.
>
> This looks sooooo MUCH better than server publishing to me ;-)
>
> Thanks to Jim (again) for the crucial "next step" link!
>
> Cheers
>
> JJ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: 13 February 2008 15:19
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Actually, in re-examining the idea, there is no UPN for a
> computer account (and no place I can see to add one).
> It'll take some playing to find out if it can work and if so, how.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 3:19 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Ok, this seems to make sense - need to have a look at see how
> achievable it is. The best practice for issuing client
> certificates for Internet SCCM clients is to use a standalone
> CA (as they are not part of AD), so I guessing this options
> is not workable - correct?
>
> If I **can** just get ISA to validate the certs, I should
> then just be able to KCD them to the IIS server - yes?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: 09 February 2008 02:27
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Here's one for Tim to shoot down:
>
> Since machine auth certificates are built by default using
> DNS names (subj = "CN=host.domain.tld", SAN = "DNS
> Name=host.domain.tld") and not UPN ("account@xxxxxxxxxx"),
> it's impossible for Windows to resolve the cert to an
> account. You could try using certreq (supp tools) to build a
> machine cert that uses UPN format (machine$@domain.tld) in
> the subject and/or SAN (you'll probably have to play a bit)
> and include "domain\domain computers" in an ISA "Windows user
> group". ..all speculation, of course...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:23 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Right, done a little more testing (playing) with this and
> here are my findings, I think I got the skinny on this, but a
> sanity check would be good :)
>
> Option 1: Use Server Publishing
>
> Results - SCCM client can authenticate to IIS on the SCCM
> management point using it's own personal client certificate
> and be fully managed, deployed with software/patches etc.
>
> Pros - Everything works
> Cons - Not ideal and ISA isn't adding a lot of value here as
> having to use Server publishing.
>
> Option 2: Use Web Publishing without KCD
>
> Results - I can only get this to work by configuring the ISA
> listener for no auth and then use the "use a client cert to
> authenticate to the SSL web server" option on the bridging
> tab. If enable the "SSL client auth" option on the web
> listener, ISA attempts to validate the certificate with AD,
> HOWEVER the client certs are issued to Internet clients who
> are not members of AD and hence have no validity with AD.
> Hence ISA gives a 401 error, kinda as expected.
>
> Pros - Everything works and ISA **can** inspect the HTTP requests
> Cons - We have no way of authenticating external clients and
> they all appear to "hide" behind the ISA Server client
> certificate. This means any SCCM client, even without a
> client cert, can connect as ISA will perform the actual
> client auth request by the internal IIS server on the
> management point. This seems unworkable from what I can tell
> as SCCM will only ever see one client...
>
> Option 3: Use Web Publishing with KCD
>
> Results - As ISA cannot validate the client certificate with
> AD, we don't even get a chance to perform delegation to the
> IIS server on the SCCM management point. Hence this option is
> a non-starter.
>
> Cons - Fundamentally flawed :-) (I think)
>
> Does all of this look correct or have I missed some options
> or misunderstood something?
>
> From my understanding FOR THIS PARTICULUAR SCENARIO, I have
> no choice but to accept defeat and go for server publishing???
>
> As ever, thanks for any input/comments...
>
> Cheers
>
> JJ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: 02 February 2008 15:17
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Yes; that makes sense.
> It's a shame that there is no good way to do this but that's
> the benefit of client-cert auth; MITM is very difficult to perform.
>
> Something to note about this process; any "SSL inspection"
> methodology is going to break client cert auth. This is
> equally true of the BlueCoat & ClearTunnel offerings. Once
> you crack the SSL channel, the certs have to be "mimicked" to
> each side. This is how they both work - by "reissuing" the
> server certificate and terminating the SSL session at the
> proxy so that the internal traffic can be inspected.
> While it's relatively simple to use your proxy as an
> intermediate CA because you can define a trust for it to your
> users, doing so for the Internet folks is much more difficult
> (and expensive!). They have to trust your proxy as an
> intermediate CA if your "reissued" client cert is to be
> worthwhile. Odds are, this just ain't happening.
>
> I can't speak to any future plans here (obviously), but I'm
> not a personal fan of Cardspace. Perhaps some more research
> will ease my concerns...
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stefaan Pouseele
> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 2:19 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> maybe I should rephrase my statement in order to clarify
> better what I mean.
>
>
> Whenever the application insist on the client cert itself
> then nothing much
> you can do but using server publishing. A classic example I
> encounter every
> day is the use of the Belgium e-ID to authenticate to a web
> application. In
> this scenario you can't use delegation or user mapping at all
> because the
> users aren't known beforehand. Moreover, in many cases the
> application must
> be able to read some stuff out of the e-ID. In short, a
> number of reasons
> why pre-authentication isn't possible and therefore SSL bridging.
>
> I wonder how 'Windows Cardspace' or in more general terms 'Information
> Cards' and 'WS-*' can/will cooperate in a pre-authentication
> scenario with
> ISA server?
>
> Kindly,
> Stefaan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: vrijdag 1 februari 2008 19:58
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> I'm actually very surprised you take this position.
> If ISA can terminate the SSL session (required for ISA to
> handle client
> certs), then you can apply the HTTP smarts ISA brings for the table.
> Server publishing SSL can't accomplish this.
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Stefaan Pouseele
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:41 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
> Hi Jason,
>
>
>
> my reasoning, whenever client certs are involved, use server
> publishing.
> Nothing ISA can do to enhance the security.
>
>
>
> HTH,
>
> Stefaan
>
>
>
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: vrijdag 1 februari 2008 16:49
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Any more thoughts on this?
>
>
>
> From what I now understand, the SCCM client is using a client
> auth cert to
> authenticate to the IIS instance running on the SCCM management point
> (mutual cert auth).
>
>
>
> We are getting close to SCCM deployments where customers
> want IBCM, but the
> only ISA Server solution I can get working is to use SSL
> tunnelling (server
> publishing). I have tried various web publishing
> configurations and none of
> them seem to work - I have tried the following:
>
>
>
> * Simple web publishing , ISA listener with no
> authentication and
> "allow client to authenticate" defined in the delegation tab
> - assumed this
> would just use pass-through auth to the IIS website to allow
> for this to do
> the client auth.
>
> * Pre-auth web publishing, ISA listener using client
> cert auth and
> then KCD to delegate to IIS.
>
>
>
> Do we think that one of these should work, or is web
> publishing for SCCM
> IBCM fundamentally flawed?
>
>
>
> Anyone actually got it working??? I know SCCM is quite new,
> but are we just
> too ahead of the curve here?
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> JJ
>
>
>
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: 19 October 2007 08:50
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
>
>
> Hi t,
>
>
>
> I was hoping to do the former and then use KCD, but from what
> I gather SCCM
> is using computer based certs - I believe this makes things
> harder?. Not
> really comes across this scenario before...I currently have
> it working in
> the lab using server publishing, but I cannot bear the
> thought of doing this
> for customers...
>
>
>
>
>
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God)
> Sent: 18 October 2007 22:15
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
>
>
> While I've not used SCCM, I've done a good bit of work with different
> certificate-based authentication models. Are you considering using a
> web-listener configured for SSL Client Certificate
> Authentication, or just
> web-publishing to a back-end web server where it will do its own
> certificate-to-user mapping?
>
>
>
> t
>
>
>
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 1:11 PM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
>
>
> Did this Q get hidden within Amy's posts or is it a big fat
> "don't know"? J
>
>
>
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Jason Jones
> Sent: 17 October 2007 00:49
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] SCCM and ISA - Worth a shot!
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Has anyone used ISA with System Centre Configuration Manager
> (SCCM) yet?
> Specifically when using Native mode (e.g. full-on PKI mode).
>
>
>
> The initial documentation is a little patchy and seems to
> contradict itself
> between using Web Publishing and Server Publishing when using
> Internet based
> clients that cannot back into the CM server. The SCCM
> documentation talks
> about lots of perimeter and internet-facing scenarios, but I
> want to try and
> use an ISA based model in a similar way to protecting Exchange or
> SharePoint. A quote from Jim comes to mind "..we don't need
> no stinking
> DMZs"
>
>
>
> Ideally I want to use Web Publishing, but all communications
> in SCCM utilise
> client certificate based authentication.
>
>
>
> Am I right in thinking I can use ISA Web publishing combined
> with KCD to
> secure access from CM clients to the CM server?
>
>
>
> Answers that tell me that I have to use Server Publishing
> will make me cry,
> so please be sensitive
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance...
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> JJ
>
>
>
>
>
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