[isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb

  • From: "Steve Moffat" <steve@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 20:08:18 -0300

You may have to make it up as you go.

-----Original Message-----
From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 8:17 PM
To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb

Where's the FM on how to configure ISA 2004, ISA Server 2006 to use SQL
Express instead of the ISA MSDE?

Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
Site: www.isaserver.org
Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
MVP -- ISA Firewalls

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Moffat
> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 5:57 PM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb
> 
> RTFM man, RTFM....lol
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 8:04 PM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb
> 
> I'm willing to give it a try -- but haven't a clue on how to implement

> it. :)
> 
> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> Site: www.isaserver.org
> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> 
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of
> > God)
> > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 4:19 PM
> > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb
> > 
> > I'm wondering if this may be a candidate for you to upgrade
> your MSDE
> > to SQL Express.
> > 
> > SQL Express manages memory much better than MSDE-- on my system, it 
> > currently only uses 1.6 Meg of RAM.  IOW, it's not waiting
> for another
> 
> > app to ask for the RAM if it doesn't need it.
> > 
> > Anybody willing to give this one a go?  I can't do it on
> SBS but I can
> 
> > try it on an ISA 2004 install and see how it goes...
> > 
> > t
> > 
> > 
> > On 5/22/06 12:06 PM, "Amy Babinchak" 
> <amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > spoketh to all:
> > 
> > > You've described the problem exactly. Where's the guidance?
> > > 
> > > Amy
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God)
> > > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 2:17 PM
> > > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb
> > > 
> > > Yes, other than the last post Jim sent out.  Apparently
> there is an
> > > issue where sometimes MSDN does NOT give it back. But
> then again, we
> 
> > > don't know if the OS is even asking for it back.  The KB doesn't 
> > > really
> > go into *why*
> > > it
> > > happens (it could be the way ISA is asking for memory for
> > that matter)
> > > but
> > > it does specify how to limit the memory.
> > > 
> > > But that just adds (I assume) to Amy's frustration as even in the 
> > > presence of an article that identifies an issue with MSDE
> memory and
> > how to limit
> > > it
> > > there is no direction or indication of exactly what to
> > limit it _to_ and
> > > under what circumstances.  The last bit about "Note The
> > optimum physical
> > > memory allocation for SQL Server may vary for your system" 
> > seems to be
> > > some
> > > what of a cop-out.
> > > 
> > > t
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 5/22/06 10:47 AM, "Thomas W Shinder" 
> > <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh
> > > to
> > > all:
> > > 
> > >> Well then, that is good news and argues for the NON-need
> > to tweak the
> > >> MSDE Max memory. Right?
> > >> 
> > >> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > >> Site: www.isaserver.org
> > >> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > >> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> > >> MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> > >> 
> > >>  
> > >> 
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > >>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor
> (Hammer of
> 
> > >>> God)
> > >>> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 11:05 AM
> > >>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>> Subject: [isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb
> > >>> 
> > >>> Right.  MSDE fires up and grabs as much memory as it thinks it 
> > >>> needs from the OS.  Other apps fire up, and ask the OS
> "dude, you
> > >>> got any good memory for me?" and the OS gives it to them if 
> > >>> available.  If it needs more than it has, the OS will
> ask MSDE for
> 
> > >>> some memory back.  MSDE,
> > since it was
> > >>> developed to play nice with memory, will comply.  Note that all 
> > >>> apps do not do this- but MSDE does.
> > >>> 
> > >>> t
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> On 5/22/06 8:47 AM, "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > spoketh to all:
> > >>> 
> > >>>> The problem is; other programs ask Windows, not other apps
> > >>> for memory
> > >>>> allocations.
> > >>>> If process A owns 512MB of 1GB and process wants 640MB,
> > >>> process B will get a
> > >>>> failure response from Windows.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>    Jim Harrison
> > >>>>    MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> > >>>>    http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> > >>>>    http://isatools.org
> > >>>>    Read the help / books / articles!
> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>>  
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > >>>> Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
> > >>>> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 08:14
> > >>>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>> Subject: [isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Hi Jim,
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> But do you know if the MSDE instance will release memory to
> > >>> other processes
> > >>>> that require it? Or is it a 'grab and hold' operation?
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > >>>> Site: www.isaserver.org
> > >>>> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > >>>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> > >>>> MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> > >>>> 
> > >>>>  
> > >>>> 
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > >>>>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Jim Harrison
> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 9:17 AM
> > >>>>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>> Subject: [isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Yep - this has been "in the wild" for some time now.
> > >>>>> What we don't have (and a reasonable request) is how to
> > >>> correlate ISA
> > >>>>> logging load with MSDE memory requirements.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > >>>>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > >>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Moffat
> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 7:02 AM
> > >>>>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>> Subject: [isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> I bow to your superior knowledge...J
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>>  
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> I came across this.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>>  
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>>  
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Well it turns out that the max server memory setting in
> > >>> MSDE (and SQL)
> > >>>>> defaults to 2147483647Mb!! A little more digging and I
> > found a SQL
> > >>>>> script to change this memory. Copy the following into
> > >>> notepad and save
> > >>>>> as sqlmemorylimit.sql .
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> USE master
> > >>>>> EXEC sp_configure 'show advanced options', 1 RECONFIGURE
> > >>> WITH OVERRIDE
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> USE master
> > >>>>> EXEC sp_configure 'max server memory (MB)', 64
> RECONFIGURE WITH
> > >>>>> OVERRIDE
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> USE master
> > >>>>> EXEC sp_configure 'show advanced options', 0 RECONFIGURE
> > >>> WITH OVERRIDE
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> With this SQL script saved we can now run it with the
> following
> > >>>>> command.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> osql -E -S servername\MSFW -i c:\sqlmemorylimit.sql
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> This will set the memory limit for MSDE to 64MB. Now you
> > >>> are probably
> > >>>>> thinking that 64MB is awefully low, and you are right. 
> > The box in
> > >>>>> question only had 256MB ram, however I would suggest to
> > set this to
> > >>>>> 1/4 of the total amount of physical memory. As an example,
> > >>> if you have
> > >>>>> 1GB of memory, set this to 256MB.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> ________________________________
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > >>>>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > >>>>> On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 11:00 AM
> > >>>>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>> Subject: [isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>>  
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Hi Steve,
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>>  
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> There is a way to set a limit on the MSDE process, but I
> > >>> didn't think
> > >>>>> there was a requirement to do so. My impression is that
> > >>> the SBS admins
> > >>>>> think that MSDE is a runaway process because it does
> > use available
> > >>>>> memory, so it looks like it taking too much. But I think
> > >>> it releases
> > >>>>> it to other processes that require it. At least that's what I 
> > >>>>> understand at this point. Maybe someone can prove it
> otherwise.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>>  
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > >>>>> Site: www.isaserver.org <http://www.isaserver.org/>
> > >>>>> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > >>>>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>>  
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> ________________________________
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > >>>>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Steve Moffat
> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 8:43 AM
> > >>>>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>> Subject: [isapros] Re: MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> As far as I know, it will release RAM when another
> app / process
> 
> > >>>>> requires it. I don't think there is any way to modify
> > the behavior.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> S
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> ________________________________
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > >>>>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Amy Babinchak
> > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 8:57 PM
> > >>>>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>> Subject: [isapros] MSDE Ram Rule of Thumb
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> In the SBS world when we switch to MSDE logging in
> ISA, the MSDE
> 
> > >>>>> service can end up taking all available ram unless we go
> > >>> in and tell
> > >>>>> it otherwise. Is there a rule of thumb for setting the ram
> > >>> on the MSDE
> > >>>>> instance for ISA? Something like X requests per minute
> > = X mb ram?
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> thanks,
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Amy
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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