How about get out your "disable PING via the FWC on ISA2004" tools first? :-p t On 7/10/06 2:42 PM, "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all: > Wait; lemme get my 2-M tools... > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Jim Harrison > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ > http://isatools.org > Read the help / books / articles! > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > -----Original Message----- > From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On > Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God) > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 14:35 > To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [isapros] Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption due to power > outtage > > I've got something you can hug.... > > t > > > On 7/10/06 1:56 PM, "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all: > >> I think someone needs a hug... >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> Jim Harrison >> MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG >> http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ >> http://isatools.org >> Read the help / books / articles! >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On >> Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God) >> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 11:50 >> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: [isapros] Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption due to power >> outtage >> >> Actually, it doesn't steam me in the least. While I can perceive the value >> of the lockdown feature, it adds no value to my environment-- I have no >> problem at all disabling it. In fact, it's been disabled since I began >> logging to SQL on my servers (long time now). No worries here. >> >> The whole thing got started when I was simply trying to identify to the ISA >> group that when logging to SQL, ISA's lockdown mode is "trigger happy" when >> certain maintenance takes place on the server- that "maintenance" can be the >> purging of "fluff" in the WebProxyLog, performing a mass update of data in >> the logs, or even regular DB Maint jobs that re-index, optimize, shrink >> db's, etc. It's not about trimming logs, purging logs, or anything to >> "solve" ISA logging issues- it can be something that doesn't even involve >> ISA logs per se. >> >> It was the identification that, in the real-world, "ISA Logging to SQL == >> Disabled Lockdown Mode" is the inevitable result in all the cases I >> examined. I didn't even say that was a bad thing- I'm quantifying it, not >> qualifying it. Like I said, I don't really care about lockdown mode. I was >> just pointing out that if lockdown mode was going to be considered an >> important feature to enterprise customers, (which I have seen it be) then >> the end user is going to require better, customizable options regarding the >> parameters used when ISA logs to SQL, or else they will be forced to disable >> it. You can't tout a feature as important if it will ultimately require >> disabling when deployed. That's all. >> >> The only time I got close to being "steamed" was when recommendations kept >> coming back regarding how to fix the "fluff" issues. I've already fixed the >> fluff issues. I said that several times. I was asking for detailed >> information on the criteria ISA uses to initiate lockdown when logging to >> SQL, not how to address log cruft, structure tables, or when to run >> maintenance jobs. My goal was to gain information on how to build a robust, >> dependable connection that would endure "standard," every-day loads, not on >> how to avoid using the connection in those environments. >> >> >> That's it. Done over here ;) >> >> t >> >> >> >> >> >> On 7/10/06 10:32 AM, "Thomas W Shinder" <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to >> all: >> >>> Why get steamed? Seems purdy easy to me. >>> >>> Thomas W Shinder, M.D. >>> Site: www.isaserver.org >>> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/ >>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 >>> MVP -- ISA Firewalls >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Harrison >>>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 12:28 PM >>>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> Subject: [isapros] Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database >>>> corruption due to power outtage >>>> >>>> Nope - just a workaround that makes Tim all steamy. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Jim Harrison >>>> MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG >>>> http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ >>>> http://isatools.org >>>> Read the help / books / articles! >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder >>>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 09:20 >>>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> Subject: [isapros] Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database >>>> corruption due to power outtage >>>> >>>> Then that would fix it? Right? >>>> >>>> Thomas W Shinder, M.D. >>>> Site: www.isaserver.org >>>> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/ >>>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 >>>> MVP -- ISA Firewalls >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor >>>>> (Hammer of God) >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 11:15 AM >>>>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> Subject: [isapros] Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database >>>>> corruption due to power outtage >>>>> >>>>> Right... That's what I said... Disable lockdown. >>>>> >>>>> t >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 7/10/06 8:29 AM, "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> spoketh to all: >>>>> >>>>>> Like unto thusly: >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/isa/2004/plan/dis >>>>> ablelockdownonlo >>>>>> gfailure.mspx >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Jim Harrison >>>>>> MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG >>>>>> http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ >>>>>> http://isatools.org >>>>>> Read the help / books / articles! >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On >>>>>> Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder >>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 08:10 >>>>>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>> Subject: [isapros] Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database >>>>> corruption due to power >>>>>> outtage >>>>>> >>>>>> Log Failure Alert. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thomas W Shinder, M.D. >>>>>> Site: www.isaserver.org >>>>>> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/ >>>>>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 >>>>>> MVP -- ISA Firewalls >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>> [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor >>>> (Hammer of >>>>>>> God) >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 9:24 AM >>>>>>> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>> Subject: [isapros] Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database >>>>> corruption due to >>>>>>> power outtage >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What do you mean "the alert?" What alert? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> t >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7/10/06 7:21 AM, "Thomas W Shinder" >>>>> <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> all: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Tim, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But you can do that by configuring the Alert to not send >>>>>>> the system into >>>>>>>> lockdown. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thomas W Shinder, M.D. >>>>>>>> Site: www.isaserver.org >>>>>>>> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/ >>>>>>>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 >>>>>>>> MVP -- ISA Firewalls >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 9:16 AM >>>>>>>>> To: Adar Greenshpon; ISA-MVP; Avi Sander; Nathan Bigman >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I guess I misunderstood. The "mentioned below" items >>>> kept going >>>>>>>>> back to how to remove the fluff, rather than dealing >>>> with why ISA >>>>>>>>> goes into lockdown so readily. I've still not seen any >>>>> information >>>>>>>>> on how/when/why ISA goes into lockdown when logging to >>>> ISA. You >>>>>>>>> had indicated that the other information was >>>> incorrect, so I was >>>>>>>>> standing by for that info. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It doesn't matter if you put it in a different database. >>>>> When the >>>>>>>>> optimization plan (you know, the "normal" plan that >>>>>>> rebuilds indexes, >>>>>>>>> insures integrity, etc) runs, ISA goes into lockdown. Even if I >>>>>>>>> waited a week in between times that I purged the data, >>>> I'll still >>>>>>>>> have to perform some maintenance, and the system would still go >>>>>>>>> into lockdown. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The solution is to disable lockdown. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> t >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 7/10/06 12:13 AM, "Adar Greenshpon" >>>>>>> <Adar.Greenshpon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>> spoketh to all: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thor: as I've indicated below, we plan on improving the >>>>>>> connectivity >>>>>>>>>> issue you raised. Given the current SQL logging >>>>>>> limitation and your >>>>>>>>>> deployment, might it be possible to split the webproxy >>>>>>> log into two >>>>>>>>>> databases: one for historical purposes and one for current >>>>>>>>> events. The >>>>>>>>>> heavy-weight maintenance could be done on the former one >>>>>>>>> while the later >>>>>>>>>> one would be available for ISA to dump logs into. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 1:50 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: ISA-MVP; Avi Sander; Adar Greenshpon; Nathan Bigman >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, Jim... Thank you. Sorry that I got so short, but I >>>>>>> was getting >>>>>>>>>> quite >>>>>>>>>> frustrated trying to make the same point over and over again. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The focus need not be on "how to trim the logs." That's >>>>>>>>> not the *real* >>>>>>>>>> issue. The focus needs to be: "Regarding lockdown, what >>>>>>>>> factors are in >>>>>>>>>> play >>>>>>>>>> when ISA logs to SQL, and under what circumstances does >>>>> ISA invoke >>>>>>>>>> lockdown when posting to a SQL DB?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Let's put the padding issues *totally* out of the picture. >>>>>>>>> Let's say >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> I've got TB's of storage and that I could not care less >>>>>>>>> about how much >>>>>>>>>> fluff >>>>>>>>>> is in my WebProxyLog-- let it get as big as it wants. >>>>>>>>> However, I must >>>>>>>>>> back >>>>>>>>>> it up. I've also experienced ISA going into lockdown >>>>>>>>> during classic db >>>>>>>>>> maintenance like backing up, re-indexing, optimizing size, >>>>>>>>> etc. These >>>>>>>>>> processes must be run regardless of the presence of >>>>>>>>> "padding issues" or >>>>>>>>>> not. >>>>>>>>>> In fact, even if the padding problem is solved in ISA2006, in >>>>>>>>>> combination with or exclusive of contributing options >>>>> in SQL 2005 >>>>>>>>>> (which I'm migrating to as I type), ISA will still go into >>>>>>>>>> lockdown when the SQL server engages in processes >>>> which may lock >>>>>>>>>> the db, or delay response in some way. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Again- (and hopefully someone will listen this time) the >>>>>>>>> concern speaks >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> the "real world" usability of "lockdown mode" within the >>>>>>>>> enterprise. If >>>>>>>>>> Microsoft intends to tout the lockdown feature of ISA >>>> as a tool >>>>>>>>>> enterprise clients can use to ensure evidentiary >>>> integrity, then >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> must address >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> mode's "survivability" during standard, everyday, >>>>>>>>> real-world processes >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> must be run on the SQL servers the ISA box is logging to, >>>>>>> or it will >>>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>>> not be used. This relates to processes that may or >>>> may not have >>>>>>>>>> anything to do with the log files themselves. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If nobody cares if lockdown is utilized in the >>>>>>> enterprise, then this >>>>>>>>>> thread >>>>>>>>>> is done. If, however, the goal is supply enterprise >>>>>>> customers with a >>>>>>>>>> lockdown mode they can use, then user-defined connection >>>>>>>>> parameters must >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> provided in order to customize the lockdown threshold to our >>>>>>>>>> environments. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> T >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 7/9/06 9:28 AM, "Jim Harrison (ISA)" >>>>>>> <Jim.Harrison@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>> spoketh >>>>>>>>>> to all: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It may help in the short run, but the issue Tim raises >>>>>>>>> isn't so much >>>>>>>>>>> "how much data is being logged", but "how long ISA will >>>>>>>>> wait while the >>>>>>>>>>> logging process fails to respond before it raises an >>>>>>> alert" and "I >>>>>>>>>> wanna >>>>>>>>>>> set this trigger point". >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What he's asking for (as have more than a few customers) >>>>>>>>> is some way >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> the user to specify a "almost choking on my own data" >>>>>>>>> alert limit that >>>>>>>>>>> could be used to move ISA logging to an alternate >>>>>>> destination (SQL, >>>>>>>>>>> file, bitbucket) until the primary logger responds once >>>>>>>>> more. What we >>>>>>>>>>> have now is a "choked on my own data" alert, which is a >>>>>>>>> bit too late. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I've seen one unfavorable comparison to >>>>>>> <product deleted> >>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>> they actually: >>>>>>>>>>> 1. fail over to a backup logging process 2. monitor >>>> the primary >>>>>>>>>>> logger 3. fail back when the primary logger >>>> reappears 4. import >>>>>>>>>>> the alternate-store log data into the primary >>>>>>> store as a >>>>>>>>>>> low-pri part of the fail-back. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Techincally, this is scriptable, except for the fact >>>>>>> that our alert >>>>>>>>>>> happens too late (and isn't "tweakable"). If one were >>>>> willing to >>>>>>>>>>> tolerate the momentary traffic block that's created today, >>>>>>>>> a script is >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> workable solution (except for the "pre-panic" factor). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jim Harrison >>>>>>>>>>> SASD (ISA SE) >>>>>>>>>>> If We Can't Fix It - It Ain't Broke! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP] >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sbradcpa@xxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 2:22 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Avi Sander; Adar Greenshpon; Nathan Bigman >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Shouldn't depadding not cause the system to freak out >>>>> and go into >>>>>>>>>>> lockdown? That's his real point.. not necessarily the >>>>>>>>> fact he has to >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> it..but the fact that ISA is there locking itself down in >>>>>>>>> the process >>>>>>>>>>> .... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thor (Hammer of God) wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Never mind. Not sure why I bother... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> t >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/9/06 12:01 AM, "Avi Sander" <asander@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>> spoketh to >>>>>>>>>>> all: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Thor - >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Please see >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/tsqlr >>>>>>>>>>> ef >>>>>>>>>>>> /ts_set-set_2uw7.asp . >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It describes how one can toggle the ANSI_PADDING >>>>>>> option. This can >>>>>>>>>>>> control how fields are padded\trimmed in SQL, but >>>>> should be set >>>>>>>>>> prior >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> tbl creation. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - avi >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 6:23 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: Avi Sander; Adar Greenshpon; ISA-MVP >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Nathan Bigman >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>>>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think we're getting off track a little here... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I appreciate the link to that "fix," but I've *already >>>>>>>>> solved* the >>>>>>>>>>>> padding >>>>>>>>>>>> issue. I've been including a script for that in >>>> my Blackhat >>>>>>>>>> trainings >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> years. To that effect, simply trimming the data in >>>>> the default >>>>>>>>>> table >>>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>>> the best way to go, IMO. The data structure is not very >>>>>>>>> efficient >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> begin >>>>>>>>>>>> with (for my needs). I've created my own (better designed) >>>>>>>>>> structure, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> trim the data as I post into that table (and there is no >>>>>>>>> "trim data" >>>>>>>>>>> DSN >>>>>>>>>>>> option that I know of). But that's OK-- as an >>>>> administrator, I >>>>>>>>>>> *expect* >>>>>>>>>>>> that I will have to adjust logging processes to better >>>>>>>>> fit my needs >>>>>>>>>>>> (just >>>>>>>>>>>> like I do with IIS logs that I post to SQL). You guys >>>>>>> provide the >>>>>>>>>>>> mechanism, >>>>>>>>>>>> and I customize it to suit me. Like I said, my yearly >>>>>>>>> retained data >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> date >>>>>>>>>>>> is only 10 gig. No problems. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What I'm saying is that *when I run the process to >>>>>>> trim the data* >>>>>>>>>> ISA >>>>>>>>>>>> goes >>>>>>>>>>>> into "lockdown." This whole thing got started when we >>>>>>>>> were talking >>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> lockdown mode, and how "trigger happy" it is when one is >>>>>>>>> logging to >>>>>>>>>>> SQL. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I only brought it up in an effort to identify this: >>>>>>>>>>>> If a customer logs to SQL, there is a padding problem. >>>>>>>>> The padding >>>>>>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>>>>>> *requires* DB maintenance processes to control. >>>> When the DB >>>>>>>>>>> maintenance >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> executed against any DB of consequence (just >>>> several thousand >>>>>>>>>> records >>>>>>>>>>>> seems >>>>>>>>>>>> to be enough), ISA goes into lockdown, presumably >>>>>>> because of the >>>>>>>>>> "lag" >>>>>>>>>>>> created by server load when the SQL server goes about >>>>>>> parsing out >>>>>>>>>> gigs >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> fluff data. This is true even on my production SQL >>>>>>>>> cluster (which >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> kickass, mind you ;) so it's not a "hardware" problem. >>>>>>>>> Thus, I was >>>>>>>>>>>> forced >>>>>>>>>>>> to disable lockdown. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, IF a customer is logging to SQL, AND >>>> they want use >>>>>>>>>>> "lockdown" >>>>>>>>>>>> THEN better user-definable timeout parameters need to be >>>>>>>>> available. >>>>>>>>>>>> That's >>>>>>>>>>>> all I was saying. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, since you have identified that ISA2004 EE, >>>>>>> ISA2006 SE, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> ISA2006 EE properly trim data before posting it to SQL, >>>>>>>>> then it all >>>>>>>>>>>> seems to >>>>>>>>>>>> be a moot point, right? ;) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The main box posting web access is currently ISA 2004 >>>>>>> SE. But I >>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>>>>>> got a copy of ISA 2004 EE that I picked up in Hong Kong >>>>>>>>> along with >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> old >>>>>>>>>>>> Rush CD that I'll throw on that guy and see what >>>>>>>>> happens. (jk;) I'll >>>>>>>>>>> let >>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> guys know what happens. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thx >>>>>>>>>>>> t >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/7/06 12:29 AM, "Avi Sander" <asander@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>> spoketh to >>>>>>>>>>> all: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> there's also an option on the ODBC DSN : 'trim >>>> fields' that >>>>>>>>>> partially >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> helps, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> if i recall correctly. >>>>>>>>>>>> I'll look into this further >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Adar Greenshpon >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Fri 07/07/2006 09:07 >>>>>>>>>>>> To: Avi Sander; Thor (Hammer of God); >>>>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Nathan Bigman >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>>>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thor, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Per the excessive padding, see this thread: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://forums.isaserver.org/m_140009200/tm.htm - I >>>>>>> think that's >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> you're >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> looking for as we already heard this a few times (as >>>>>>> Avi pointed >>>>>>>>>> out, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> problem does not exist in ISA 2004EE or ISA 2006 >>>>>>>>> versions). Nathan >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> will an >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> official KB help here? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Adar. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Avi Sander >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 12:27 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: Thor (Hammer of God) >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Adar Greenshpon >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>>>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> OK - that explains it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a known SQL ODBC interfacing issue. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ISA 2004 EE and ISA2006 SE & EE moved away from ODBC >>>>>>>>> and use oledb >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> interfaces >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for SQL server logging instead. This issue does not >>>>>>> exist there >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> anymore as it >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is all trimmed by design (and throughput is also greatly >>>>>>>>>> increased). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The 2 potential causes of errors i mentioned earlier in >>>>>>>>> the thread >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (buffers >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> full, 4 retries) are only relevant to the OLEDB >>>>>>>>> logging, and not to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> your ISA - >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> my bad. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> let me check with the ISA2004 SE code and get back to >>>>>>> you with a >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> picture... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -avi >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thu 06/07/2006 23:12 >>>>>>>>>>>> To: Avi Sander >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>>>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> These are ISA2004 SE boxes. I haven't tried with >>>>>>>>> ISA2006 yet, but >>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> running it here at The Yeti and can check it out >>>> (unless you >>>>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>>>>>> know...) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> t >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/06 2:08 PM, "Avi Sander" <asander@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>> spoketh to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> all: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Thor - >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What ISA version are you using? and whichSKU: SE or EE? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -avi >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thu 06/07/2006 18:39 >>>>>>>>>>>> To: Adar Greenshpon; ISA-MVP; Avi Sander >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>>>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Adar- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, logs going to an external SQL 2000 cluster via >>>>>>>>> direct gigabit >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> switched >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> link. And log retention is permanent. Though I've >>>>>>>>> only got 120 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> employees, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>> have tight policies on Internet usage and abuse and I, >>>>>>>>> like many, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> must keep >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> access logs to ensure these policies are being >>>>>>>>> honored, as well as >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for any >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> number of potential legal issues that might arise. I >>>>>>>>> trust that >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> are not >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting that ISA log retention via SQL should be >>>>>>> measured in >>>>>>>>>>> days, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> right? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ;) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Let me go into more detail about the "fluff" I >>>>>>> mentioned- it is >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> so much >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the "gigs of logs" as it would relate to real data- it >>>>>>>>> is actual >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "fluff:" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Extra, padded spacing in the fields posted to >>>> SQL from ISA. >>>>>>>>>> Though >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> you guys >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> have defined the fields in SQL as nvarchar data, there >>>>>>>>> is some bad >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mojo in >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> logging process. Cursory review of the data in >>>>>>>>> something like SQL >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Query >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Analyzer may not immediately reveal this, but binary >>>>>>> analyze of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> data >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> files >>>>>>>>>>>> do. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've created some example text files to simplify what >>>>>>>>> I am talking >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (Attached as SQL1.txt and SQL2.txt). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Consider the following simple query to retrieve a >>>>>>> single row of >>>>>>>>>>> basic >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> data >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> from the WebProxyLog as stored by ISA: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "select >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> ClientUserName,ClientAgent,DestHost,DestHostIP,SrcNetwork,DstNetwork >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> from WebProxyLog where LogID=10133541" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (SQL1.txt contains the results, but I'll paste them >>>>>>>>> here as well) >>>>>>>>>>>> <begin paste> >>>>>>>>>>>> ANCHORSIGN\yomomma >>>>>>>>>>>> PGP >>>>>>>>>>>> update.pgp.com >>>>>>>>>>>> 63.251.255.18 VPN Clients >>>>>>>>>>>> External >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> </end paste> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Notice all the extra spacing; again, even though the >>>>>>> fields are >>>>>>>>>> type >>>>>>>>>>>> nvarchar-- ISA is padding the data. Now, let's trim >>>>>>>>> it up and see >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> happens in this query: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "select >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> rtrim(ClientUserName),rtrim(ClientAgent),rtrim(DestHost),rtrim(DestHos >>>>>>>>>>> tI >>>>>>>>>>>> P),rt>> >>>>>>>>>>>> r >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> im(SrcNetwork),rtrim(DstNetwork) from WebProxyLog where >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> LogID=10133541" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (SQL2.txt contains the results, but again I'll >>>> paste them) >>>>>>>>>>>> <begin paste> >>>>>>>>>>>> ANCHORSIGN\yomomma PGP update.pgp.com >>>>> 63.251.255.18 >>>>>>>>>> VPN >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Clients >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> External >>>>>>>>>>>> </end paste> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The original query results are 934 bytes. The >>>>> trimmed query >>>>>>>>>> results >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> are 74 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> bytes. Just for this simple query, with selected >>>>>>>>> fields from one >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> record, the >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> storage requirements for this data is 12.62 times >>>>>>>>> greater due to >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "fluff." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Extend that out to a full logged record, and then >>>>>>> multiply that >>>>>>>>>>> times >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> tens of >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> thousands. *THIS* is the 1-2 gigs of "fluff" I'm >>>>>>>>> talking about on >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *daily* >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> basis. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The "required maintenance" I'm talking about is where >>>>>>>>> I take daily >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> raw data >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> from the WebProxyLog, trim it up, and then post it >>>>>>> into my own >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> tables. In my >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> case, the _yearly_ web proxy log data for my users is >>>>>>>>> only 10 gig. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _Weekly_ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "raw" data in the original ISA log format averages 12 >>>>>>>>> gig. When >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> run this >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> process, I am able to retrieve data via SQA, Access >>>>>>>>> front end, or >>>>>>>>>>> via >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ADODB >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> objects, yet ISA will go into lockdown mode while >>>>>>> logging when >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> job runs >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> at night. That's why I have to turn it off. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I hope that better defines the issue as I see it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanksl >>>>>>>>>>>> T >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> "Tom Shinder pities Mr. T" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/5/06 2:01 AM, "Adar Greenshpon" >>>>>>>>>> <Adar.Greenshpon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> spoketh >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to all: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Thor, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just so we'll be on the same page: are you directing >>>>>>>>> your ISA logs >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> external machine with SQL Server (SQL 2000 or 2005)?. >>>>>>>>> If so, how >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> you do >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the maintenance? What's your desired log retention >>>>>>>>> policy (e.g. 7 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> days)? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Per the gigs of logs you're doing, have you considered >>>>>>>>> reducing it >>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> logging images http requests? >>>>>>>>>>>> Adar. >>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Adar Greenshpon | Program Manager | Microsoft ISA Server >>>>>>>>>>>> adarg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:adarg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:adarg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> | Tel: +972.4.856.1077 | SMS/Cell: +972.54.666.4579 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:55 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: Avi Sander >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Adar Greenshpon; ISA-MVP >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>>>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> OK- the either/or situation makes more sense. I'm >>>>>>>>> sure that I'm >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hitting >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the log buffer- the 9 second minimum window is what is >>>>>>>>> getting me. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> How exactly do you define a "failure to commit?" Are >>>>>>>>> you actively >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> looking >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> a "failure" code from SQL, or is it the lack of >>>> a committed >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> transaction >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>> the time span? I ask because if I am in the middle of DB >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> maintenance, I can >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> execute a transaction that might have to wait a >>>>>>> while to get a >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> committal, but >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> SQL knows about the transaction pending and won't >>>>> error out. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The SQL table structure included in 2004 results in >>>>>>> HUGE table >>>>>>>>>> sizes >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for web >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> proxy logging alone. I'm talking gigs worth of fluff >>>>>>>>> per day, so >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> daily DB >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> maintenance is an absolute requirement. I have >>>> never had a >>>>>>>>>> logging >>>>>>>>>>>> transaction "live" through a maintenance period >>>>>>>>> without going into >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> lockdown, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hence it being disabled on all my web proxy listener >>>>>>> machines. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I understand that the reasoning behind "lockdown" is for >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "evidentiary" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> reasons, but that seems counter intuitive to me. The >>>>>>>>> actual log >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> important to me than the absence of a logged event >>>>>>>>> when the system >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> locks >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> down. >>>>>>>>>>>> So, not only are the services not available (though a >>>>>>>>>> "fail-safe"), >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> but I >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> loose any log of any attempt in the meantime. Are we >>>>>>>>> going to see >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> some more >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "user definable" setting in regard to logging and >>>>>>> lockdown? If >>>>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> see how even mid-size businesses will be able to >>>> log to SQL >>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> disabling >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the feature. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> t >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/4/06 5:51 AM, "Avi Sander" >>>>>>>>> <asander@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> all: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ISA will lockdown if either of the following occurs >>>>>>> (whichever >>>>>>>>>> comes >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 1st): >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Four consecutive failures to commit the >>>>>>> data into the >>>>>>>>>> DB. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Our >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> default COMMIT timeout is 30 secs. We'll retry every 3 >>>>>>>>> secs. So at >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> minimum >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> you've got 9 secs here. >>>>>>>>>>>> - LOG buffers are exhausted\out of memory. By >>>>>>>>> default on a >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 1GB RAM >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> machine we'll accumulate tens of thousands of recs. Is >>>>>>>>> there a lot >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> traffic >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> going through when this happens? How much RAM does >>>>>>> this machine >>>>>>>>>>> have? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What is the event description you see in the EventViewer? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Log buffers can be extended some more, though not >>>>>>>>> recommended >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> since can >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> use up a lot of memory. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -avi >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Adar Greenshpon >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 2:03 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Avi Sander >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>>>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Avi - wanna play logging diva? >>>>>>>>>>>> Generally speaking, there are four internal commit >>>>>>>>> retries until >>>>>>>>>> ISA >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> enters >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> lockdown. We have seen a few thousand log records in >>>>>>>>> the buffers >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> temporary moments in our stress labs (nothing you >>>>>>> could really >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> witness on a >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> normal SBS box though). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Adar. >>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Adar Greenshpon | Program Manager | Microsoft ISA Server >>>>>>>>>>>> adarg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:adarg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:adarg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> | Tel: +972.4.856.1077 | SMS/Cell: +972.54.666.4579 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:26 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: ISA-MVP >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>>>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If that is what you guys are expecting to happen, I >>>>>>>>> can tell you, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *ain't* the case - not when logging to SQL on another >>>>>>>>> box, anyway. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There's >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> no "using as much memory as it can" going on. It >>>>>>>>> seems to be more >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> like "I >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> did not get an acknowledgement that the last >>>>> transaction was >>>>>>>>>>> written, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> it's been 2 seconds, so I'm going into lockdown." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm looking forward to what info you can get from >>>>>>> your "logging >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> diva." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> t >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/28/06 8:43 AM, "Jim Harrison (ISA)" >>>>>>>>>>> <Jim.Harrison@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>> spoketh to all: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, it's not a fixed value (or >>>>>>>>> user-changeable), other than >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> self-regulating. >>>>>>>>>>>> ISA logging will use as much memory as it can until >>>>>>>>> it determines >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> growth is unchecked. Thus, how quickly ISA will cry >>>>>>>>> foul depends >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> part on how much free memory is available. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'll ask our logging diva for details, but this sums >>>>>>>>> it up pretty >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jim Harrison >>>>>>>>>>>> SASD (ISA SE) >>>>>>>>>>>> If We Can't Fix It - It Ain't Broke! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:09 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: ISA-MVP >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database >>>>> corruption due to >>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It must be about a 1k buffer, then. I repeatedly >>>>> put ISA in >>>>>>>>>>> lockdown >>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>> seconds of maintenance jobs being run, or other "data >>>>>>>>> intensive" >>>>>>>>>>>> operations >>>>>>>>>>>> on the DB. I would start the job, in in a few >>>>> seconds, get >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> disconnected >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> form my TS session because of it-- It wasn't a "one >>>>>>>>> time" thing- >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> consistent and repeatable. That's the only reason I >>>>>>> went ahead >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>>>>>>> lockdown. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is the buffer user definable somewhere? What exactly >>>>>>>>> does your >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> script >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> do? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> t >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/28/06 7:54 AM, "Jim Harrison (ISA)" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <Jim.Harrison@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> spoketh to all: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, that's not true; ISA doesn't go into >>>>>>> lockdown until >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> logging buffer is filled. >>>>>>>>>>>> I agree that a "backup logging" concept is useful. >>>>>>>>>>>> I have a script that works for ISA 2000; it >>>> shouldn't be >>>>>>>>>> difficult >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "agnosticize" it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jim Harrison >>>>>>>>>>>> Security Platform Group (ISA SE) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If We Can't Fix It - It Ain't Broke! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Thor (Hammer of God) >>>> [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 7:34 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: ISA-MVP >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ISAServer] Firewall database >>>>>>> corruption due to >>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to see some way to at least "buffer" >>>> the logging >>>>>>>>>> requests >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> logging to an off-box ODBC destination, like SQL. >>>>>>>>> ISA is quite >>>>>>>>>>>> intolerant >>>>>>>>>>>> of even the slightest interruption in logging. >>>>>>> But, I guess >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> makes >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sense if the goal is to have "evidentiary credibility." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It wouldn't have to be something l337 like a >>>>>>> secondary local >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> logging >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> option >>>>>>>>>>>> or anything like that-- I think being able to >>>>> set a timeout >>>>>>>>>> value >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> would. With larger db's, a maintenance job >>>>> would kick the >>>>>>>>>> server >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> into >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> lockdown, even though the SQL service is still >>>> running... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jim, I know you wanted me to get my infrastructure >>>>>>>>> layout to you >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> my solution to the SQL db size problems, but I >>>>>>> haven't had a >>>>>>>>>>> chance >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>> that old email. I should just re-create it ;) >>>>>>>>> Regardless, even >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> "solution" in place, I've had to disable >>>>> lockdown mode when >>>>>>>>>>> logging >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> SQL >>>>>>>>>>>> for that very reason. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> t >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/28/06 7:19 AM, "Thomas W Shinder" >>>>>>> <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> spoketh >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> all: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And it's a really good security and forensics decision. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thomas W Shinder, M.D. >>>>>>>>>>>> Site: www.isaserver.org >>>>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/ >>>>>>>>>>>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 MVP -- ISA Firewalls >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Amy Babinchak >>>>>>> [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx%5d> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 6:28 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [ISAServer] Firewall database >>>>>>>>> corruption due to >>>>>>>>>>>> power outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I like that ISA shuts down if it can't log. It's >>>>>>>>> an indicator >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> something has gone wrong. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Amy >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP] >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sbradcpa@xxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>>>>>> <mailto:sbradcpa@xxxxxxxxxxx%5d> >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sbradcpa@xxxxxxxxxxx%5d> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 12:12 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [ISAServer] Firewall database corruption >>>>>>>>> due to power >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> outtage >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> With the caveat that we all know we need a good >>>>>>>>> UPS but like >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> stuff >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> happens.. I've seen two folks recently have issues >>>>>>>>> getting a >>>>>>>>>>>> server back >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> up have a 'dirty shutdown' due to power outtage >>>>>>>>> that ended up >>>>>>>>>>>> corrupting >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the ISA firewall database. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Short of uninstalling and reinstalling... short of >>>>>>>>> adjusting >>>>>>>>>>>> ISA so it >>>>>>>>>>>> won't shut down if it can't log... short of a >>>>>>> better UPS... >>>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> recommendations on handling this better? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>>>>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN >>>>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in LEAVE >>>>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>>>>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN >>>>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in LEAVE >>>>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>>>>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN >>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in LEAVE >>>>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>>>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN >>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in LEAVE >>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>>>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN >>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in LEAVE >>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>>>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN >>>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In >>>>>>>>>>>> the subject line put in LEAVE >>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>>>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN >>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In >>>>>>>>>>>> the subject line put in LEAVE isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>>>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN >>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In >>>>>>>>>>>> the subject line put in LEAVE isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>>>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN >>>> isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In >>>>>>>>>>>> the subject line put in LEAVE isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In the >>>>>>>>>>>> subject line put in LEAVE isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In the >>>>>>>>>>> subject line put in LEAVE isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>> In the subject line put in JOIN isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In the >>>>>>>>>>> subject line put in LEAVE isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list - send an email to >>>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In >>>>>>>>> the subject line put in JOIN isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To leave the list - send an email to >>>> list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In the >>>>>>>>> subject line put in LEAVE isaserver@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, >>>>>>>>> youremailaddress >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Don't forget the comma! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned. >> >> >> >> > > > > > All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned. > > > >