Hi Amy, You know, I go both ways on this (OK Jim and Thor, no jokes here). I really have a much greater kinship with these small businesses and like working with them much more than the "big guys" who have swallowed the PIX/Netscreem Bsology hook, line and sinker. I'm going to have to rethink my approach to this subject, as it would be a good way to introduce them to the power and flexibility of the ISA firewall software and when they get bigger, they'll be a position to use dedicated ISA powered hardware firewall (like that Jim, 'hardware firewalls' :-)) I was seriously considering not including any of these scenarios in the upcoming book, because there are a lot of potential gotcha's. However, it sounds like these customers are less interested in being security 'purists' and more interested in having secure remote access and a measure of outbound access control. I'm sure the SBS team will do a bang up job on coming up with some Wizardry for this, but that might be almost a year away, from the sources I have on this issue. BTW -- have you heard of SMB Nation? I'll be talking at their conference next month and still trying to figure out what to say to them :)) Thanks! Tom www.isaserver.org/shinder Get the book! Tom and Deb Shinder's Configuring ISA Server 2004 http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 MVP -- ISA Firewalls -----Original Message----- From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:21 AM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: What's wrong with this page? http://www.ISAserver.org Tom, The scenario that I outlined isn't far off when I walk into a new client. I can get them from scary to SBS Premium relatively quickly. But I really think I'm going to run into a road block if I have to convince them that they need 2 servers, when they are managing to run the business without 1 right now. This will leave me with the fall back position of SBS with some cheap-azz firewall with major holes punched through it for remote access and remote access is BIG with small business. These folks put in long hours and would rather put in some of those hours from home. Remote access is THE thing that tips the scale in favor of SBS with small biz owners and gets them to release the funds to create a real network. Only ISA can do that safely. Amy -----Original Message----- From: Thomas W Shinder [mailto:tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:00 AM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: What's wrong with this page? http://www.ISAserver.org Hi Amy, That's a pretty good disseration! I might lift it for some other stuff I'm writing in the near future (but I will give you credit!) However, the scenario you're describing here looks more like the people who use Kazaa are their primary vendor of ISA firewall software and Reset5 as their version of CDW for Windows Server 2003. They aren't able to warez the hardware, so they hit the flea market or pawn shop or eBay (or whatever fence they decide to use that day) for the hardware. This is not the type of small biz I think about, but I guess I need to. Even 5 person shops can generate significant yearly revenues where security and remote access are critical for the business and millions of dollars would be lost after the Linksys or Netgear or the PIX (you know, all open outbound to any application and any user is really helpful for trojan afficiandos, you can can't beat packet filters for the most modern and effective method of securing the perimeter). So, investing $1.37 isn't too much for a business that wants to stay in business, wants to grow, and wants to reduce their overall TCO (unless the TCB [total cost of buying] is almost zero because of eBay and Kazaa). IMHO, Tom www.isaserver.org/shinder Get the book! Tom and Deb Shinder's Configuring ISA Server 2004 http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 MVP -- ISA Firewalls -----Original Message----- From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 6:38 AM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: What's wrong with this page? http://www.ISAserver.org Tom, you know by now how I feel about this...but you brought out the soap box, so here goes...Only if the ISA appliances come in very near $500. Otherwise, most small businesses are going to go back to handing out passwords to ex-cons as they leave the pen. (I mean using Norton Internet Security or nothing at all.) Eliminating ISA from SBS integration may make a few businesses more secure but it will leave most of them up a creek without a paddle. If some of my clients knew that SBS was available at a lower cost with ISA they would have insisted on buying it that way because they went to Best Buy and saw that they have firewalls for $59 and it checks for viruses too! Now once they've been my client for a while they tend to go with what ever I recommend but new small biz clients are a hard sell. I'm out here trying to convert the masses let's not make it more difficult than it already is. No argument from me that it would be more secure on separate hardware but I want to see you sell it to Joe's Landscape Service, 12 user network. Now Joe's nephew is pretty good with computers, he's in college. He's the one that set up what they have now. Right now they have Yahoo DSL with a built-in firewall, 1 Windows 95 computer, 2 Windows 98, 6 Windows 98SE, 2 Windows ME, and 1 new XP Home. If their Nephew can't get what they need from school, then they buy all of their computer stuff at Best Buy or if they don't have it they can order from Staples. They run Office 97 Quickbooks Pro 2000, and an Access 97 database. They have no domain name, no website. They have no software disks. They have no backup. Joe calls you because he's tired of these slow computers and wants a couple of new ones. Also, his nephew came in and installed Office 2003 on some of the machines but now their Access database doesn't work so when you fix that he wants you to put that new office on all the computers. His nephew has the CD for it. (burned copy from school) They tried to get the DSL to work on all the computers but SBC Yahoo DSL says that it can only work on one computer at a time, but they know that other bigger businesses have DSL that works on all computers so they know that DSL support is lying about that; they want Internet on all the computers. They think they have a virus again because the computer that runs Quickbooks keeps hanging and they have to reboot it 3 times a day. Over the winter they went to a landscape show and got a domain name of joeslandscape.com so they want to start using email. He heard that you can work from home using XP, so that's what the new XP machine is for, so set it up for me. We'll probably want to have more people work from home once we get this one working. I know my wife wants to use Quickbooks at home and my brother's wife will want to check her email from home. I bought some palm pilots off eBay for the crew leaders that I want to all use the same address book. Send me a quote. This is your starting point with Joe. How long will it take you to get him to buy two servers? Amy -----Original Message----- From: Thomas W Shinder [mailto:tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 10:58 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: What's wrong with this page? http://www.ISAserver.org Hi Amy, Wait until the ISA firewall appliances come out. You'll never go back to putting your purse on the front-lawn before you go to bed at night (I mean, putting DC and Exchange Server on the firewall) :-) Tom -----Original Message----- From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 8:57 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: What's wrong with this page? http://www.ISAserver.org Sorry guys, I'm an SBS person. ISA 2004 isn't available as far as I'm concerned. Amy ------------------------------------------------------ List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist ISA Server Newsletter: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ ------------------------------------------------------ Other Internet Software Marketing Sites: World of Windows Networking: http://www.windowsnetworking.com Leading Network Software Directory: http://www.serverfiles.com No.1 Exchange Server Resource Site: http://www.msexchange.org Windows Security Resource Site: http://www.windowsecurity.com/ Network Security Library: http://www.secinf.net/ Windows 2000/NT Fax Solutions: http://www.ntfaxfaq.com ------------------------------------------------------ You are currently subscribed to this ISAserver.org Discussion List as: tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe visit http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist ------------------------------------------------------ List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist ISA Server Newsletter: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ ------------------------------------------------------ Other Internet Software Marketing Sites: World of Windows Networking: http://www.windowsnetworking.com Leading Network Software Directory: http://www.serverfiles.com No.1 Exchange Server Resource Site: http://www.msexchange.org Windows Security Resource Site: http://www.windowsecurity.com/ Network Security Library: http://www.secinf.net/ Windows 2000/NT Fax Solutions: http://www.ntfaxfaq.com ------------------------------------------------------ You are currently subscribed to this ISAserver.org Discussion List as: amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe visit http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist ------------------------------------------------------ List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist ISA Server Newsletter: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ ------------------------------------------------------ Other Internet Software Marketing Sites: World of Windows Networking: http://www.windowsnetworking.com Leading Network Software Directory: http://www.serverfiles.com No.1 Exchange Server Resource Site: http://www.msexchange.org Windows Security Resource Site: http://www.windowsecurity.com/ Network Security Library: http://www.secinf.net/ Windows 2000/NT Fax Solutions: http://www.ntfaxfaq.com ------------------------------------------------------ You are currently subscribed to this ISAserver.org Discussion List as: tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe visit http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist