Yes, unfortunately. This is exactly why I list this step among the "last line of defense". -------------------------------------------- Jim Harrison MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ http://isatools.org Read the help / books / articles! -------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 7:12 AM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests http://www.ISAserver.org Yes, I am. So once you do that does any traffic bother to authenticate anymore? Amy -----Original Message----- From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 10:05 AM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests http://www.ISAserver.org Contrary to tribal knowledge, there's nothing special about the SBS installation of ISA other than some rules that make me nauseous and wizards that remove the burden of understanding. The SBS version of ISA is ISA Std Edition. I think you're referring to disassociating the Web Proxy filter from the HTTP protocol as is offered for some apps that can't authenticate at all? ..which brings up my next point - while it's true that there are some apps that think they have a direct link to their desired destination, this technique should be the *last* line of defense; not the first. -------------------------------------------- Jim Harrison MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ http://isatools.org Read the help / books / articles! -------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 5:59 AM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests http://www.ISAserver.org So then in the SBS world once we check the box that allows apps to bi-pass the web proxy filter won't everything then bi-pass it? In the first ISA, she says, she would allow unauthenticated access and everything would then go through? Amy -----Original Message----- From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:58 AM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests http://www.ISAserver.org I'm not clear on "basic and authenticated", since basic is an authentication mechanism? If you mean "basic and <anything else offered>", it's up to the client to choose the strongest method it supports (RFC 2617). In the first "ISA, she say:", ISA advises the client what auth methods it will accept )Negotiate, NTLM, Kerberos in my example). In the second "Client, he say:", the client responds with the auth method it wants to use. In this response, the specified auth method *must* be one of the options ISA previously presented, or ISA will reject the auth attempt. -------------------------------------------- Jim Harrison MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ http://isatools.org Read the help / books / articles! -------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:31 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests http://www.ISAserver.org I'll probably get your post a day or two from now. They tend to come in blobs. 20 messages today, 300 tomorrow. I find it difficult to keep track of a thread. I don't even ask yahoo to send it out of their own system. It gets delivered to my yahoo account! Maybe I should sign up under a non-yahoo address and see if I have any better success. I understand that the authentication process starts all over again. What I'm asking is, if I enable basic and authenticated access for the listener, what determines whether ISA will accept basic or authenticated for a particular packet? Amy -----Original Message----- From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:24 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests http://www.ISAserver.org sbs2k@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx The point is that: 1. the clients know diddly (and maybe even squat) about the way the proxy is configured 2. unless the client is using proxy:keepalive in the client-to-proxy connection, each request is an introduction between the client and the proxy Thus, each new connection between the client and proxy incurs a new authentication requirement and the ball starts bouncing all over again. ------------------------------------------------------- Jim Harrison MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ http://isatools.org Read the help / books / articles! ------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 14:11 To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests Which forum? So here is where I get confused. If my web listener allows both non-authenticated and authenticated requests, then why after I allow non-authenticated access does ISA ever require authentication? Won't everything then be accepted with authentication? Amy ________________________________ From: Greg Mulholland [mailto:greg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 3:38 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] Web Client Requests Hey guys, im forwarding this message on behalf of Jim. He posted it to another list and true to form it was too good an explanation not to impart on the masses (or the cheesemakers). This traces the path of your IE (or other) http requests and explains why you will always see anonymous requests in your web logs. Thanks Jim Greg Mulholland >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Correct - all web clients do exactly that. This is also why the logs will forever contain anonymous requests even if all you allow are authenticated connections, because ISA will log those denied anonymous requests. What you can't tell from the logs is what happens after that in detail. This requires a bit of Netmon (or Ethereal, if you swing that way) sleuthing. Here's the bouncing ball: ** Client, he say: GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1 Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel, application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */* Accept-Language: en-us Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1) Host: www.isaserver.org Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive ** ISA, she say: HTTP/1.1 407 Proxy Authentication Required ( The ISA Server requires authorization to fulfill the request. Access to the Web Proxy service is denied. ) Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD Proxy-Authenticate: Negotiate Proxy-Authenticate: Kerberos Proxy-Authenticate: NTLM Connection: Keep-Alive Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive Pragma: no-cache Cache-Control: no-cache Content-Type: text/html Content-Length: 4113 ..note - the ISA in this case (as in yours, probably) logged this request as anonymous and responded saying that it allowed three authentication methods: Negotiate, Kerberos and NTLM. These are the default auth methods for any ISA installation (including SBS). ** Client, he say: GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1 Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel, application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */* Accept-Language: en-us Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1) Host: www.isaserver.org Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive Proxy-Authorization: NTLM TlRMTVNTUAABAAAAB7IIogQABAAzAAAACwALACgAAAAFASgKAAAAD0ZPUkRQUkVGRUNUSE9N RQ== Note that the client chose NTLM auth and passed the first part of the handshake in Base-64 encoding. Not to worry, this isn't like Basic, which is base-64 encoded plain text; this is base-64 encoded encrypted information. ISA also logs this request as anonymous. ** ISA, she say: HTTP/1.1 407 Proxy Authentication Required ( Access is denied. ) Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD Proxy-Authenticate: NTLM TlRMTVNTUAACAAAACAAIADgAAAAFgomiWWcfZe6QNCsAAAAAAAAAALQAtABAAAAABQLODgAA AA9IAE8ATQBFAAIACABIAE8ATQBFAAEAFgBIAEUAQQBSAFQATwBGAEcATwBMAEQABAAiAGgA bwBtAGUALgBqAGEAbABvAGoAYQBzAGgALgBvAHIAZwADADoAaABlAGEAcgB0AG8AZgBnAG8A bABkAC4AaABvAG0AZQAuAGoAYQBsAG8AagBhAHMAaAAuAG8AcgBnAAUAIgBoAG8AbQBlAC4A agBhAGwAbwBqAGEAcwBoAC4AbwByAGcAAAAAAA== Connection: Keep-Alive Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive Pragma: no-cache Cache-Control: no-cache Content-Type: text/html Content-Length: 0 Note that ISA also passed some NTLM data back to the client - this is part and parcel to NTLM authentication even outside of HTTP ** Client, he say: GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1 Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel, application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */* Accept-Language: en-us Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1;.NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1) Host: www.isaserver.org Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive Proxy-Authorization: NTLM TlRMTVNTUAADAAAAGAAYAG4AAAAYABgAhgAAAAgACABIAAAACAAIAFAAAAAWABYAWAAAAAAA AACeAAAABYKIogUBKAoAAAAPSABPAE0ARQBKAGkAbQBIAEYATwBSAEQAUABSAEUARgBFAEMA VABunrbKxTfLxwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABNhP8BkKK3ZR1MXfC2h14+Q4IQaVlWRH8= Note that the client passes the remaining part of the NTLM handshake - if ISA can resolve the credentials passed by the client during this process, all will be FD&H. ** ISA, she say: HTTP/1.1 200 OK Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive Connection: Keep-Alive Content-Length: 40936 Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:49:15 GMT Content-Type: text/html Server: Microsoft-IIS/6.0 X-Powered-By: ASP.NET Set-Cookie: ASPSESSIONIDCCRRSRBC=EIBLFICAIMCPFBFCEKFFKBEA; path=/ Cache-control: private This is where access is allowed (200 response). You should note that I haven't included anything that may have been passed in the HTTP body - it's not important to this discussion and only makes for an unweildy thread. -------------------------------------------- Jim Harrison MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ http://isatools.org Read the help / books / articles! All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned. ------------------------------------------------------ List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist ISA Server Newsletter: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ ------------------------------------------------------ Visit TechGenix.com for more information about our other sites: http://www.techgenix.com ------------------------------------------------------ You are currently subscribed to this ISAserver.org Discussion List as: amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe visit http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist Report abuse to listadmin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ------------------------------------------------------ List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist ISA Server Newsletter: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ ------------------------------------------------------ Visit TechGenix.com for more information about our other sites: http://www.techgenix.com ------------------------------------------------------ You are currently subscribed to this ISAserver.org Discussion List as: jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe visit http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist Report abuse to listadmin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned. ------------------------------------------------------ List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist ISA Server Newsletter: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ ------------------------------------------------------ Visit TechGenix.com for more information about our other sites: http://www.techgenix.com ------------------------------------------------------ You are currently subscribed to this ISAserver.org Discussion List as: amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe visit http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist Report abuse to listadmin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ------------------------------------------------------ List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist ISA Server Newsletter: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ ------------------------------------------------------ Visit TechGenix.com for more information about our other sites: http://www.techgenix.com ------------------------------------------------------ You are currently subscribed to this ISAserver.org Discussion List as: jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe visit http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist Report abuse to listadmin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned. ------------------------------------------------------ List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist ISA Server Newsletter: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ ------------------------------------------------------ Visit TechGenix.com for more information about our other sites: http://www.techgenix.com ------------------------------------------------------ You are currently subscribed to this ISAserver.org Discussion List as: amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe visit http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist Report abuse to listadmin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ------------------------------------------------------ List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist ISA Server Newsletter: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ ------------------------------------------------------ Visit TechGenix.com for more information about our other sites: http://www.techgenix.com ------------------------------------------------------ You are currently subscribed to this ISAserver.org Discussion List as: jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe visit http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist Report abuse to listadmin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned.