RE: Web Client Requests

  • From: "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "[ISAserver.org Discussion List]" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:30:16 -0800

You are absolutely correct.
IE == WinINET
OL2k3 == WinHTTP
WinMedia == WinHTTP for the wpad script only; internal code for the rest

Note that non-MS browsers on Windows are likely using WinInet; I haven't
tested them this deeply, though so it's just a guess.
--------------------------------------------
Jim Harrison
MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
http://isatools.org
Read the help / books / articles!
--------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas W Shinder [mailto:tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 10:21 AM
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests

http://www.ISAserver.org

Hi Jim,

Well then, that *does* explain a lot. Am I correct to assume that IE and
Outlook 2XXX are not using the same interface. That is to say, one is
using WinHTTP and the other WinInet?

Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
Site: www.isaserver.org
Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/members/drisa/
Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
MVP -- ISA Firewalls
**Who is John Galt?**

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] 
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 11:08 AM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> 
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> 
> Tom,
> 
> That's only true *if* the app knows how to:
> - request it
> - interpret it
> 
> For instance, WinHTTP knows how to ask for it, but it only uses the
> server list; not the code that accompanies it.
> 
> You can *never* assume that all proxy-aware apps actually 
> know anything
> about using a .pac file (what WPAD really is).
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> Jim Harrison
> MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> http://isatools.org
> Read the help / books / articles!
> --------------------------------------------
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas W Shinder [mailto:tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:08 AM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> 
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> 
> But if the app is proxy aware, it should follow the directives of the
> autoconfiguration script that includes the Direct Access entries.
> 
> Oh wait, let me guess -- some of these apps don't  take their proxy
> settings from IE and they don't support the autoconfig script?
> 
> Tom
> 
> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> Site: www.isaserver.org
> Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/members/drisa/
> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> **Who is John Galt?**
> 
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] 
> > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 2:54 PM
> > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > 
> > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > 
> > ..except if the app is proxy-aware, then you get into the 
> > "worm ate the
> > bird" problem again...
> > 
> > I will stipulate that the SBS community seems to hit this particular
> > wall more often than most; probably due to the
> > cheaposkinflintmothposcketicity of their customers.
> > 
> > --------------------------------------------
> > Jim Harrison
> > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> > http://isatools.org
> > Read the help / books / articles!
> > --------------------------------------------
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas W Shinder [mailto:tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
> > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:34 PM
> > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > 
> > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > 
> > Hey Jim,
> > 
> > That's what the Firewall client is for, so that you don't have to
> > disable auth.
> > 
> > So, I'll have to update my maxim:
> > 
> > SecureNAT and Anonymous Access rules are for Losers and Servers.
> > 
> > How's that?
> > 
> > Tom 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] 
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:13 PM
> > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > > 
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > 
> > > You're right - I responded in reverse.
> > > If you:
> > > 1. disable the web proxy filter
> > > 2. remove authentication
> > > 
> > > ..then no one is forced to authenticate and you are limited 
> > > to IP-based access controls.
> > > Bad juju, IMHO...
> > > 
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > Jim Harrison
> > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> > > http://isatools.org
> > > Read the help / books / articles!
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 11:02 AM
> > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > > 
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > 
> > > Yes unfortunately? Wouldn't it be no, unfortunately?
> > > 
> > > Yes to me would mean that everything would authenticate 
> > > except for what you specify.
> > > 
> > > No would mean that everything would then go through without 
> > > authentication.
> > > 
> > > Amy
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 10:36 AM
> > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > > 
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > 
> > > Yes, unfortunately.
> > > This is exactly why I list this step among the "last line  of 
> > > defense".
> > > 
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > Jim Harrison
> > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> > > http://isatools.org
> > > Read the help / books / articles!
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 7:12 AM
> > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > > 
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > 
> > > Yes, I am. So once you do that does any traffic bother to 
> > > authenticate anymore?
> > > 
> > > Amy
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 10:05 AM
> > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > > 
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > 
> > > Contrary to tribal knowledge, there's nothing special about 
> > > the SBS installation of ISA other than some rules that make 
> > > me nauseous and wizards that remove the burden of 
> > > understanding.  The SBS version of ISA is ISA Std Edition.
> > > 
> > > I think you're referring to disassociating the Web Proxy 
> > > filter from the HTTP protocol as is offered for some apps 
> > > that can't authenticate at all?
> > > 
> > > ..which brings up my next point - while it's true that there 
> > > are some apps that think they have a direct link to their 
> > > desired destination, this technique should be the *last* line 
> > > of defense; not the first.
> > > 
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > Jim Harrison
> > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> > > http://isatools.org
> > > Read the help / books / articles!
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 5:59 AM
> > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > > 
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > 
> > > So then in the SBS world once we check the box that allows 
> > > apps to bi-pass the web proxy filter won't everything then 
> > > bi-pass it? In the first ISA, she says, she would allow 
> > > unauthenticated access and everything would then go through?
> > > 
> > > Amy
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:58 AM
> > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > > 
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > 
> > > I'm not clear on "basic and authenticated", since basic is an 
> > > authentication mechanism?  If you mean "basic and <anything else
> > > offered>", it's up to the client to choose the strongest method it
> > > supports (RFC 2617).
> > > 
> > > In the first "ISA, she say:", ISA advises the client what 
> > > auth methods it will accept )Negotiate, NTLM, Kerberos in 
> > my example).
> > > In the second "Client, he say:", the client responds with the 
> > > auth method it wants to use.  In this response, the specified 
> > > auth method
> > > *must* be one of the options ISA previously presented, or ISA 
> > > will reject the auth attempt.
> > > 
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > Jim Harrison
> > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> > > http://isatools.org
> > > Read the help / books / articles!
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:31 PM
> > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > > 
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > 
> > > I'll probably get your post a day or two from now. They tend 
> > > to come in blobs. 20 messages today, 300 tomorrow. I find it 
> > > difficult to keep track of a thread. I don't even ask yahoo 
> > > to send it out of their own system. It gets delivered to my 
> > > yahoo account! Maybe I should sign up under a non-yahoo 
> > > address and see if I have any better success.
> > > 
> > > I understand that the authentication process starts all over 
> > > again. What I'm asking is, if I enable basic and 
> > > authenticated access for the listener, what determines 
> > > whether ISA will accept basic or authenticated for a 
> > > particular packet? 
> > > 
> > > Amy
> > >  
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:24 PM
> > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > > 
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > 
> > > sbs2k@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > 
> > > The point is that:
> > > 1. the clients know diddly (and maybe even squat) about the 
> > > way the proxy is configured 2. unless the client is using 
> > > proxy:keepalive in the client-to-proxy connection, each 
> > > request is an introduction between the client and the proxy 
> > > 
> > > Thus, each new connection between the client and proxy incurs 
> > > a new authentication requirement and the ball starts bouncing 
> > > all over again.
> > > 
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > >    Jim Harrison
> > >    MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> > >    http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> > >    http://isatools.org
> > >    Read the help / books / articles!
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > >  
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 14:11
> > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
> > > 
> > > Which forum? 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > So here is where I get confused. If my web listener allows 
> > > both non-authenticated and authenticated requests, then why 
> > > after I allow non-authenticated access does ISA ever require 
> > > authentication? Won't everything then be accepted with 
> > authentication?
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Amy
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > > 
> > > From: Greg Mulholland [mailto:greg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 3:38 PM
> > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> > > Subject: [isalist] Web Client Requests
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Hey guys, im forwarding this message on behalf of Jim. He 
> > > posted it to another list and true to form it was too good an 
> > > explanation not to impart on the masses (or the cheesemakers).
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > This traces the path of your IE (or other) http requests and 
> > > explains why you will always see anonymous requests in your 
> > > web logs. Thanks Jim
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Greg Mulholland
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > 
> > > Correct - all web clients do exactly that.
> > > This is also why the logs will forever contain anonymous 
> > > requests even if all you allow are authenticated connections, 
> > > because ISA will log those denied anonymous requests.
> > > 
> > > What you can't tell from the logs is what happens after that 
> > > in detail.
> > > This requires a bit of Netmon (or Ethereal, if you swing that 
> > > way) sleuthing.
> > > 
> > > Here's the bouncing ball:
> > > 
> > > ** Client, he say:
> > > GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1
> > > Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, 
> > > application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel, 
> > > application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */*
> > > Accept-Language: en-us
> > > Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate
> > > User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 
> > > 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1)
> > > Host: www.isaserver.org
> > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
> > > 
> > > ** ISA, she say:
> > > HTTP/1.1 407 Proxy Authentication Required ( The ISA Server 
> > > requires authorization to fulfill the request. Access to the 
> > > Web Proxy service is denied.  )
> > > Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD
> > > Proxy-Authenticate: Negotiate
> > > Proxy-Authenticate: Kerberos
> > > Proxy-Authenticate: NTLM
> > > Connection: Keep-Alive
> > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
> > > Pragma: no-cache
> > > Cache-Control: no-cache
> > > Content-Type: text/html
> > > Content-Length: 4113 
> > > 
> > > ..note - the ISA in this case (as in yours, probably) logged 
> > > this request as anonymous and responded saying that it 
> > > allowed three authentication methods: Negotiate, Kerberos and 
> > > NTLM.  These are the default auth methods for any ISA 
> > > installation (including SBS).
> > > 
> > > ** Client, he say:
> > > GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1
> > > Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, 
> > > application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel, 
> > > application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */*
> > > Accept-Language: en-us
> > > Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate
> > > User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 
> > > 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1)
> > > Host: www.isaserver.org
> > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
> > > Proxy-Authorization: NTLM
> > > TlRMTVNTUAABAAAAB7IIogQABAAzAAAACwALACgAAAAFASgKAAAAD0ZPUkRQUk
> > > VGRUNUSE9N
> > > RQ==
> > > 
> > > Note that the client chose NTLM auth and passed the first 
> > > part of the handshake in Base-64 encoding.  Not to worry, 
> > > this isn't like Basic, which is base-64 encoded plain text; 
> > > this is base-64 encoded encrypted information.  ISA also logs 
> > > this request as anonymous.
> > > 
> > > ** ISA, she say:
> > > HTTP/1.1 407 Proxy Authentication Required ( Access is denied.  )
> > > Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD
> > > Proxy-Authenticate: NTLM
> > > TlRMTVNTUAACAAAACAAIADgAAAAFgomiWWcfZe6QNCsAAAAAAAAAALQAtABAAA
> > > AABQLODgAA
> > > AA9IAE8ATQBFAAIACABIAE8ATQBFAAEAFgBIAEUAQQBSAFQATwBGAEcATwBMAE
> > > QABAAiAGgA
> > > bwBtAGUALgBqAGEAbABvAGoAYQBzAGgALgBvAHIAZwADADoAaABlAGEAcgB0AG
> > > 8AZgBnAG8A
> > > bABkAC4AaABvAG0AZQAuAGoAYQBsAG8AagBhAHMAaAAuAG8AcgBnAAUAIgBoAG
> > > 8AbQBlAC4A
> > > agBhAGwAbwBqAGEAcwBoAC4AbwByAGcAAAAAAA==
> > > Connection: Keep-Alive
> > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
> > > Pragma: no-cache
> > > Cache-Control: no-cache
> > > Content-Type: text/html
> > > Content-Length: 0  
> > > 
> > > Note that ISA also passed some NTLM data back to the client - 
> > > this is part and parcel to NTLM authentication even 
> outside of HTTP
> > > 
> > > ** Client, he say:
> > > GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1
> > > Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, 
> > > application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel, 
> > > application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */*
> > > Accept-Language: en-us
> > > Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate
> > > User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 
> > > 5.1; SV1;.NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1)
> > > Host: www.isaserver.org
> > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
> > > Proxy-Authorization: NTLM
> > > TlRMTVNTUAADAAAAGAAYAG4AAAAYABgAhgAAAAgACABIAAAACAAIAFAAAAAWAB
> > > YAWAAAAAAA
> > > AACeAAAABYKIogUBKAoAAAAPSABPAE0ARQBKAGkAbQBIAEYATwBSAEQAUABSAE
> > > UARgBFAEMA
> > > 
> VABunrbKxTfLxwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABNhP8BkKK3ZR1MXfC2h14+Q4IQaVlWRH8=
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Note that the client passes the remaining part of the NTLM 
> > > handshake - if ISA can resolve the credentials passed by the 
> > > client during this process, all will be FD&H.
> > > 
> > > ** ISA, she say:
> > > HTTP/1.1 200 OK
> > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
> > > Connection: Keep-Alive
> > > Content-Length: 40936
> > > Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD
> > > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:49:15 GMT
> > > Content-Type: text/html
> > > Server: Microsoft-IIS/6.0
> > > X-Powered-By: ASP.NET
> > > Set-Cookie: ASPSESSIONIDCCRRSRBC=EIBLFICAIMCPFBFCEKFFKBEA; path=/
> > > Cache-control: private
> > > 
> > > This is where access is allowed (200 response).
> > > 
> > > You should note that I haven't included anything that may 
> > > have been passed in the HTTP body - it's not important to 
> > > this discussion and only makes for an unweildy thread.
> > > 
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > > Jim Harrison
> > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> > > http://isatools.org
> > > Read the help / books / articles!
> > > 
> > > 
> > > All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned.
> > > 
> > > 
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> > > 
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/243 - Release 
> > > Date: 1/27/2006
> > >  
> > > 
> > 
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> > 
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/243 - Release 
> > Date: 1/27/2006
> >  
> > 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist
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> ------------------------------------------------------
> Visit TechGenix.com for more information about our other sites:
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> All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned.
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> ------------------------------------------------------
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> ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Visit TechGenix.com for more information about our other sites:
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> ------------------------------------------------------
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> List as: tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> 

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ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ
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http://www.techgenix.com
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