RE: Web Client Requests
- From: "Stefaan Pouseele" <stefaan.pouseele@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'[ISAserver.org Discussion List]'" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:15:29 +0100
Hi Jim,
I agree... but I have personally seen, with the help of my favorite netmon
tool Ethereal, that IE dare to send 127.0.0.1 to the ISA server. Therefore I
always define 127/8 as direct access ;-)
Stefaan
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: zondag 29 januari 2006 18:27
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
http://www.ISAserver.org
..because the browser is stupid.
There should be *no* reason to tell a browser that 127/8 is local - this is
a well-understood and accepted standard since Jon Postel first played with
TCP/IP.
--------------------------------------------
Jim Harrison
MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
http://isatools.org
Read the help / books / articles!
--------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefaan Pouseele [mailto:stefaan.pouseele@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 9:10 AM
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
http://www.ISAserver.org
Hi Jim,
But the browser doesn't :-(
Stefaan
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: zondag 29 januari 2006 18:06
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
http://www.ISAserver.org
You shouldn't have to do that.
The FWC already knows that 127/8 is localhost-only.
--------------------------------------------
Jim Harrison
MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
http://isatools.org
Read the help / books / articles!
--------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 5:59 AM
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
http://www.ISAserver.org
I haven't tried putting the localhost into the fwc exception list. The only
address in the exception list by default is the internal IP of the server.
Do you also include this address?
Amy
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefaan Pouseele [mailto:stefaan.pouseele@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:28 AM
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
http://www.ISAserver.org
Hi Amy,
The Firewall Client should take care of all authentication problems if you
set those sites for direct access. However, are you sure that the network ID
'127.0.0.0/8' is *always* set for direct access in IE and is included in the
FWC's LAT? Many financial applications are using the network ID
'127.0.0.0/8' as some sort of local proxy service, at least here in Belgium.
HTH,
Stefaan
-----Original Message-----
From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: zaterdag 28 januari 2006 22:15
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
http://www.ISAserver.org
I don't know about that. You must just not be hearing about it from the
rest. The apps that are causing problems are from banks (401K submission),
payroll services, stock brokerage services...essentially anything firmly in
the bean counter realm. Schwab, ADP, Paychex, you name it. If it's financial
they've got a java app that won't play nice with authentication, even with
the Firewall Client installed.
Note to Tom: And these things aren't running on the server either, they're
running on client workstations.
Amy
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 3:54 PM
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
http://www.ISAserver.org
..except if the app is proxy-aware, then you get into the "worm ate the
bird" problem again...
I will stipulate that the SBS community seems to hit this particular wall
more often than most; probably due to the cheaposkinflintmothposcketicity of
their customers.
--------------------------------------------
Jim Harrison
MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
http://isatools.org
Read the help / books / articles!
--------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas W Shinder [mailto:tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:34 PM
To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
http://www.ISAserver.org
Hey Jim,
That's what the Firewall client is for, so that you don't have to disable
auth.
So, I'll have to update my maxim:
SecureNAT and Anonymous Access rules are for Losers and Servers.
How's that?
Tom
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:13 PM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> You're right - I responded in reverse.
> If you:
> 1. disable the web proxy filter
> 2. remove authentication
>
> ..then no one is forced to authenticate and you are limited to
> IP-based access controls.
> Bad juju, IMHO...
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Jim Harrison
> MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> http://isatools.org
> Read the help / books / articles!
> --------------------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 11:02 AM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> Yes unfortunately? Wouldn't it be no, unfortunately?
>
> Yes to me would mean that everything would authenticate except for
> what you specify.
>
> No would mean that everything would then go through without
> authentication.
>
> Amy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 10:36 AM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> Yes, unfortunately.
> This is exactly why I list this step among the "last line of
> defense".
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Jim Harrison
> MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> http://isatools.org
> Read the help / books / articles!
> --------------------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 7:12 AM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> Yes, I am. So once you do that does any traffic bother to authenticate
> anymore?
>
> Amy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 10:05 AM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> Contrary to tribal knowledge, there's nothing special about the SBS
> installation of ISA other than some rules that make me nauseous and
> wizards that remove the burden of understanding. The SBS version of
> ISA is ISA Std Edition.
>
> I think you're referring to disassociating the Web Proxy filter from
> the HTTP protocol as is offered for some apps that can't authenticate
> at all?
>
> ..which brings up my next point - while it's true that there are some
> apps that think they have a direct link to their desired destination,
> this technique should be the *last* line of defense; not the first.
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Jim Harrison
> MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> http://isatools.org
> Read the help / books / articles!
> --------------------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 5:59 AM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> So then in the SBS world once we check the box that allows apps to
> bi-pass the web proxy filter won't everything then bi-pass it? In the
> first ISA, she says, she would allow unauthenticated access and
> everything would then go through?
>
> Amy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:58 AM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> I'm not clear on "basic and authenticated", since basic is an
> authentication mechanism? If you mean "basic and <anything else
> offered>", it's up to the client to choose the strongest method it
> supports (RFC 2617).
>
> In the first "ISA, she say:", ISA advises the client what auth methods
> it will accept )Negotiate, NTLM, Kerberos in my example).
> In the second "Client, he say:", the client responds with the auth
> method it wants to use. In this response, the specified auth method
> *must* be one of the options ISA previously presented, or ISA will
> reject the auth attempt.
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Jim Harrison
> MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> http://isatools.org
> Read the help / books / articles!
> --------------------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:31 PM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> I'll probably get your post a day or two from now. They tend to come
> in blobs. 20 messages today, 300 tomorrow. I find it difficult to keep
> track of a thread. I don't even ask yahoo to send it out of their own
> system. It gets delivered to my yahoo account! Maybe I should sign up
> under a non-yahoo address and see if I have any better success.
>
> I understand that the authentication process starts all over again.
> What I'm asking is, if I enable basic and authenticated access for the
> listener, what determines whether ISA will accept basic or
> authenticated for a particular packet?
>
> Amy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:24 PM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
>
> sbs2k@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> The point is that:
> 1. the clients know diddly (and maybe even squat) about the way the
> proxy is configured 2. unless the client is using proxy:keepalive in
> the client-to-proxy connection, each request is an introduction
> between the client and the proxy
>
> Thus, each new connection between the client and proxy incurs a new
> authentication requirement and the ball starts bouncing all over
> again.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Jim Harrison
> MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> http://isatools.org
> Read the help / books / articles!
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 14:11
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests
>
> Which forum?
>
>
>
> So here is where I get confused. If my web listener allows both
> non-authenticated and authenticated requests, then why after I allow
> non-authenticated access does ISA ever require authentication? Won't
> everything then be accepted with authentication?
>
>
>
> Amy
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Greg Mulholland [mailto:greg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 3:38 PM
> To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List]
> Subject: [isalist] Web Client Requests
>
>
>
> Hey guys, im forwarding this message on behalf of Jim. He posted it to
> another list and true to form it was too good an explanation not to
> impart on the masses (or the cheesemakers).
>
>
>
> This traces the path of your IE (or other) http requests and explains
> why you will always see anonymous requests in your web logs. Thanks
> Jim
>
>
>
> Greg Mulholland
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Correct - all web clients do exactly that.
> This is also why the logs will forever contain anonymous requests even
> if all you allow are authenticated connections, because ISA will log
> those denied anonymous requests.
>
> What you can't tell from the logs is what happens after that in
> detail.
> This requires a bit of Netmon (or Ethereal, if you swing that
> way) sleuthing.
>
> Here's the bouncing ball:
>
> ** Client, he say:
> GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1
> Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg,
> application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel,
> application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */*
> Accept-Language: en-us
> Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate
> User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1;
> .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1)
> Host: www.isaserver.org
> Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
>
> ** ISA, she say:
> HTTP/1.1 407 Proxy Authentication Required ( The ISA Server requires
> authorization to fulfill the request. Access to the Web Proxy service
> is denied. )
> Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD
> Proxy-Authenticate: Negotiate
> Proxy-Authenticate: Kerberos
> Proxy-Authenticate: NTLM
> Connection: Keep-Alive
> Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
> Pragma: no-cache
> Cache-Control: no-cache
> Content-Type: text/html
> Content-Length: 4113
>
> ..note - the ISA in this case (as in yours, probably) logged this
> request as anonymous and responded saying that it allowed three
> authentication methods: Negotiate, Kerberos and NTLM. These are the
> default auth methods for any ISA installation (including SBS).
>
> ** Client, he say:
> GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1
> Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg,
> application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel,
> application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */*
> Accept-Language: en-us
> Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate
> User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1;
> .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1)
> Host: www.isaserver.org
> Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
> Proxy-Authorization: NTLM
> TlRMTVNTUAABAAAAB7IIogQABAAzAAAACwALACgAAAAFASgKAAAAD0ZPUkRQUk
> VGRUNUSE9N
> RQ==
>
> Note that the client chose NTLM auth and passed the first part of the
> handshake in Base-64 encoding. Not to worry, this isn't like Basic,
> which is base-64 encoded plain text; this is base-64 encoded encrypted
> information. ISA also logs this request as anonymous.
>
> ** ISA, she say:
> HTTP/1.1 407 Proxy Authentication Required ( Access is denied. )
> Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD
> Proxy-Authenticate: NTLM
> TlRMTVNTUAACAAAACAAIADgAAAAFgomiWWcfZe6QNCsAAAAAAAAAALQAtABAAA
> AABQLODgAA
> AA9IAE8ATQBFAAIACABIAE8ATQBFAAEAFgBIAEUAQQBSAFQATwBGAEcATwBMAE
> QABAAiAGgA
> bwBtAGUALgBqAGEAbABvAGoAYQBzAGgALgBvAHIAZwADADoAaABlAGEAcgB0AG
> 8AZgBnAG8A
> bABkAC4AaABvAG0AZQAuAGoAYQBsAG8AagBhAHMAaAAuAG8AcgBnAAUAIgBoAG
> 8AbQBlAC4A
> agBhAGwAbwBqAGEAcwBoAC4AbwByAGcAAAAAAA==
> Connection: Keep-Alive
> Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
> Pragma: no-cache
> Cache-Control: no-cache
> Content-Type: text/html
> Content-Length: 0
>
> Note that ISA also passed some NTLM data back to the client - this is
> part and parcel to NTLM authentication even outside of HTTP
>
> ** Client, he say:
> GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1
> Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg,
> application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel,
> application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */*
> Accept-Language: en-us
> Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate
> User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1;
> SV1;.NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1)
> Host: www.isaserver.org
> Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
> Proxy-Authorization: NTLM
> TlRMTVNTUAADAAAAGAAYAG4AAAAYABgAhgAAAAgACABIAAAACAAIAFAAAAAWAB
> YAWAAAAAAA
> AACeAAAABYKIogUBKAoAAAAPSABPAE0ARQBKAGkAbQBIAEYATwBSAEQAUABSAE
> UARgBFAEMA
> VABunrbKxTfLxwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABNhP8BkKK3ZR1MXfC2h14+Q4IQaVlWRH8=
>
>
> Note that the client passes the remaining part of the NTLM handshake -
> if ISA can resolve the credentials passed by the client during this
> process, all will be FD&H.
>
> ** ISA, she say:
> HTTP/1.1 200 OK
> Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
> Connection: Keep-Alive
> Content-Length: 40936
> Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:49:15 GMT
> Content-Type: text/html
> Server: Microsoft-IIS/6.0
> X-Powered-By: ASP.NET
> Set-Cookie: ASPSESSIONIDCCRRSRBC=EIBLFICAIMCPFBFCEKFFKBEA; path=/
> Cache-control: private
>
> This is where access is allowed (200 response).
>
> You should note that I haven't included anything that may have been
> passed in the HTTP body - it's not important to this discussion and
> only makes for an unweildy thread.
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Jim Harrison
> MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> http://isatools.org
> Read the help / books / articles!
>
>
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