Hi Jim, Just to make clear, IE negotiates with the Web proxy device. In contrast, cr*pware like Realplayer and Java apps don't negotiate. Right? Tom Thomas W Shinder, M.D. Site: www.isaserver.org Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/members/drisa/ Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 MVP -- ISA Firewalls **Who is John Galt?** > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 3:39 PM > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > Unfortunately, that statement "..IE attempts to use Integrated.." is > incorrect. > I've had the distinct pleasure(?) of testing all the popular browsers > and they *all* choose from the supported auth methods listed by the > server or proxy. If the proxy or server does not include NTLM or > Negotiate, the browser won't try it. > > The only reason NTLM (Windows auth) takes precedence over Basic is > because the application in question is obeying RFC 2617. > > That KB is illustrating how IIS handles various auth methods; IE is a > side note at best. > > -------------------------------------------- > Jim Harrison > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ > http://isatools.org > Read the help / books / articles! > -------------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Irby [mailto:irbykh@xxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:35 PM > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > Hi Amy, > > I have had this pain myself. Instead of Integrated Auth, I > had to turn > on > Basic Auth on the Web Proxy. Many Java Apps are proxy aware, just not > NTLM/Kerb aware. > > The good thing is IE attempts to use Integrated when ISA or > any web app > requests authentication. > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/264921 Please > scroll down to the Order of Precedence portion of this article; in the > third > paragraph it discusses IE Basic and Windows Auth. Windows Auth takes > precedence over Basic. Hopefully, this is a very limited set of users > sending auth requests in the clear (non-encrypted). > > Regards, > > Keith > > -----Original Message----- > From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 3:15 PM > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > I don't know about that. You must just not be hearing about > it from the > rest. The apps that are causing problems are from banks (401K > submission), payroll services, stock brokerage services...essentially > anything firmly in the bean counter realm. Schwab, ADP, Paychex, you > name it. If it's financial they've got a java app that won't play nice > with authentication, even with the Firewall Client installed. > > Note to Tom: And these things aren't running on the server either, > they're running on client workstations. > > Amy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 3:54 PM > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > ..except if the app is proxy-aware, then you get into the > "worm ate the > bird" problem again... > > I will stipulate that the SBS community seems to hit this particular > wall more often than most; probably due to the > cheaposkinflintmothposcketicity of their customers. > > -------------------------------------------- > Jim Harrison > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ > http://isatools.org > Read the help / books / articles! > -------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas W Shinder [mailto:tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:34 PM > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > Hey Jim, > > That's what the Firewall client is for, so that you don't have to > disable auth. > > So, I'll have to update my maxim: > > SecureNAT and Anonymous Access rules are for Losers and Servers. > > How's that? > > Tom > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:13 PM > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > > > You're right - I responded in reverse. > > If you: > > 1. disable the web proxy filter > > 2. remove authentication > > > > ..then no one is forced to authenticate and you are limited > > to IP-based access controls. > > Bad juju, IMHO... > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > Jim Harrison > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ > > http://isatools.org > > Read the help / books / articles! > > -------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 11:02 AM > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > > > Yes unfortunately? Wouldn't it be no, unfortunately? > > > > Yes to me would mean that everything would authenticate > > except for what you specify. > > > > No would mean that everything would then go through without > > authentication. > > > > Amy > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 10:36 AM > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > > > Yes, unfortunately. > > This is exactly why I list this step among the "last line of > > defense". > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > Jim Harrison > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ > > http://isatools.org > > Read the help / books / articles! > > -------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 7:12 AM > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > > > Yes, I am. So once you do that does any traffic bother to > > authenticate anymore? > > > > Amy > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 10:05 AM > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > > > Contrary to tribal knowledge, there's nothing special about > > the SBS installation of ISA other than some rules that make > > me nauseous and wizards that remove the burden of > > understanding. The SBS version of ISA is ISA Std Edition. > > > > I think you're referring to disassociating the Web Proxy > > filter from the HTTP protocol as is offered for some apps > > that can't authenticate at all? > > > > ..which brings up my next point - while it's true that there > > are some apps that think they have a direct link to their > > desired destination, this technique should be the *last* line > > of defense; not the first. > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > Jim Harrison > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ > > http://isatools.org > > Read the help / books / articles! > > -------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 5:59 AM > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > > > So then in the SBS world once we check the box that allows > > apps to bi-pass the web proxy filter won't everything then > > bi-pass it? In the first ISA, she says, she would allow > > unauthenticated access and everything would then go through? > > > > Amy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:58 AM > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > > > I'm not clear on "basic and authenticated", since basic is an > > authentication mechanism? If you mean "basic and <anything else > > offered>", it's up to the client to choose the strongest method it > > supports (RFC 2617). > > > > In the first "ISA, she say:", ISA advises the client what > > auth methods it will accept )Negotiate, NTLM, Kerberos in > my example). > > In the second "Client, he say:", the client responds with the > > auth method it wants to use. In this response, the specified > > auth method > > *must* be one of the options ISA previously presented, or ISA > > will reject the auth attempt. > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > Jim Harrison > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ > > http://isatools.org > > Read the help / books / articles! > > -------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:31 PM > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > > > I'll probably get your post a day or two from now. They tend > > to come in blobs. 20 messages today, 300 tomorrow. I find it > > difficult to keep track of a thread. I don't even ask yahoo > > to send it out of their own system. It gets delivered to my > > yahoo account! Maybe I should sign up under a non-yahoo > > address and see if I have any better success. > > > > I understand that the authentication process starts all over > > again. What I'm asking is, if I enable basic and > > authenticated access for the listener, what determines > > whether ISA will accept basic or authenticated for a > > particular packet? > > > > Amy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 5:24 PM > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > > > http://www.ISAserver.org > > > > sbs2k@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > The point is that: > > 1. the clients know diddly (and maybe even squat) about the > > way the proxy is configured 2. unless the client is using > > proxy:keepalive in the client-to-proxy connection, each > > request is an introduction between the client and the proxy > > > > Thus, each new connection between the client and proxy incurs > > a new authentication requirement and the ball starts bouncing > > all over again. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Jim Harrison > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ > > http://isatools.org > > Read the help / books / articles! > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Amy Babinchak [mailto:amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 14:11 > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > > Subject: [isalist] RE: Web Client Requests > > > > Which forum? > > > > > > > > So here is where I get confused. If my web listener allows > > both non-authenticated and authenticated requests, then why > > after I allow non-authenticated access does ISA ever require > > authentication? Won't everything then be accepted with > authentication? > > > > > > > > Amy > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Greg Mulholland [mailto:greg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 3:38 PM > > To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] > > Subject: [isalist] Web Client Requests > > > > > > > > Hey guys, im forwarding this message on behalf of Jim. He > > posted it to another list and true to form it was too good an > > explanation not to impart on the masses (or the cheesemakers). > > > > > > > > This traces the path of your IE (or other) http requests and > > explains why you will always see anonymous requests in your > > web logs. Thanks Jim > > > > > > > > Greg Mulholland > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > Correct - all web clients do exactly that. > > This is also why the logs will forever contain anonymous > > requests even if all you allow are authenticated connections, > > because ISA will log those denied anonymous requests. > > > > What you can't tell from the logs is what happens after that > > in detail. > > This requires a bit of Netmon (or Ethereal, if you swing that > > way) sleuthing. > > > > Here's the bouncing ball: > > > > ** Client, he say: > > GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1 > > Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, > > application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel, > > application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */* > > Accept-Language: en-us > > Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate > > User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT > > 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1) > > Host: www.isaserver.org > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive > > > > ** ISA, she say: > > HTTP/1.1 407 Proxy Authentication Required ( The ISA Server > > requires authorization to fulfill the request. Access to the > > Web Proxy service is denied. ) > > Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD > > Proxy-Authenticate: Negotiate > > Proxy-Authenticate: Kerberos > > Proxy-Authenticate: NTLM > > Connection: Keep-Alive > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive > > Pragma: no-cache > > Cache-Control: no-cache > > Content-Type: text/html > > Content-Length: 4113 > > > > ..note - the ISA in this case (as in yours, probably) logged > > this request as anonymous and responded saying that it > > allowed three authentication methods: Negotiate, Kerberos and > > NTLM. These are the default auth methods for any ISA > > installation (including SBS). > > > > ** Client, he say: > > GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1 > > Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, > > application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel, > > application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */* > > Accept-Language: en-us > > Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate > > User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT > > 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1) > > Host: www.isaserver.org > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive > > Proxy-Authorization: NTLM > > TlRMTVNTUAABAAAAB7IIogQABAAzAAAACwALACgAAAAFASgKAAAAD0ZPUkRQUk > > VGRUNUSE9N > > RQ== > > > > Note that the client chose NTLM auth and passed the first > > part of the handshake in Base-64 encoding. Not to worry, > > this isn't like Basic, which is base-64 encoded plain text; > > this is base-64 encoded encrypted information. ISA also logs > > this request as anonymous. > > > > ** ISA, she say: > > HTTP/1.1 407 Proxy Authentication Required ( Access is denied. ) > > Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD > > Proxy-Authenticate: NTLM > > TlRMTVNTUAACAAAACAAIADgAAAAFgomiWWcfZe6QNCsAAAAAAAAAALQAtABAAA > > AABQLODgAA > > AA9IAE8ATQBFAAIACABIAE8ATQBFAAEAFgBIAEUAQQBSAFQATwBGAEcATwBMAE > > QABAAiAGgA > > bwBtAGUALgBqAGEAbABvAGoAYQBzAGgALgBvAHIAZwADADoAaABlAGEAcgB0AG > > 8AZgBnAG8A > > bABkAC4AaABvAG0AZQAuAGoAYQBsAG8AagBhAHMAaAAuAG8AcgBnAAUAIgBoAG > > 8AbQBlAC4A > > agBhAGwAbwBqAGEAcwBoAC4AbwByAGcAAAAAAA== > > Connection: Keep-Alive > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive > > Pragma: no-cache > > Cache-Control: no-cache > > Content-Type: text/html > > Content-Length: 0 > > > > Note that ISA also passed some NTLM data back to the client - > > this is part and parcel to NTLM authentication even outside of HTTP > > > > ** Client, he say: > > GET http://www.isaserver.org/ HTTP/1.1 > > Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, > > application/x-shockwave-flash, application/vnd.ms-excel, > > application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, application/msword, */* > > Accept-Language: en-us > > Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate > > User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT > > 5.1; SV1;.NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1) > > Host: www.isaserver.org > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive > > Proxy-Authorization: NTLM > > TlRMTVNTUAADAAAAGAAYAG4AAAAYABgAhgAAAAgACABIAAAACAAIAFAAAAAWAB > > YAWAAAAAAA > > AACeAAAABYKIogUBKAoAAAAPSABPAE0ARQBKAGkAbQBIAEYATwBSAEQAUABSAE > > UARgBFAEMA > > VABunrbKxTfLxwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABNhP8BkKK3ZR1MXfC2h14+Q4IQaVlWRH8= > > > > > > Note that the client passes the remaining part of the NTLM > > handshake - if ISA can resolve the credentials passed by the > > client during this process, all will be FD&H. > > > > ** ISA, she say: > > HTTP/1.1 200 OK > > Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive > > Connection: Keep-Alive > > Content-Length: 40936 > > Via: 1.1 HEARTOFGOLD > > Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:49:15 GMT > > Content-Type: text/html > > Server: Microsoft-IIS/6.0 > > X-Powered-By: ASP.NET > > Set-Cookie: ASPSESSIONIDCCRRSRBC=EIBLFICAIMCPFBFCEKFFKBEA; path=/ > > Cache-control: private > > > > This is where access is allowed (200 response). > > > > You should note that I haven't included anything that may > > have been passed in the HTTP body - it's not important to > > this discussion and only makes for an unweildy thread. > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > Jim Harrison > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ > > http://isatools.org > > Read the help / books / articles! > > > > > > All mail to and from this domain is GFI-scanned. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist > > ISA Server Newsletter: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp > > ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ > > 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