[isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
- From: "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:12:28 -0700
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
Don't worry about him... Jim's just roughing you up a bit... He's had a
hard day.
t
On 10/19/06 3:43 PM, "Amy Babinchak" <amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
spoketh to all:
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Fortunately my client list contains 0 P2P networks so it was rhetorical
> question anyway. I have never seen an P2P network with an internal DNS
> server so I'm wondering if this is common practice these days among that
> that do P2P?
>
> Amy
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:32 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Users don't care because they just "want you to make it work".
> How you go about that within the framework of the current contract is
> your business.
>
> If you're happy building P2P networks that depend on NB broadcast for
> internal connectivity, that's up to you since you have to support them,
> but I strongly encourage you to rethink this position.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:33 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> I do often fear them because I only have so much time in my life to
> learn new stuff. At least what I learn about one Microsoft app is
> somewhat transferable to others.
>
> So what's the advantage of running DNS on an XP workstation on a
> peer-peer network? I don't think the users are going to care and it'll
> just be one more machine they have to keep running to keep the network
> going. Just like the "print server" workstation.
>
>
> Amy
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:23 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> If there is a network, then there is at least one machine.
> If they have one single machine, they can have a DNS server.
> XP can run DNS services unless you're afraid of a non-MS solution.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:15 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> From his description I was assuming no server. He mentioned very small
> businesses.
>
> Amy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:49 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sez hoo?
> If you have a single machine, you have the possibility of operating your
> own DNS service.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:47 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Joseph,
>
> Are you saying that you need DNS functionality on a network without a
> firewall? In that case you have no choice but the use the DNS server
> provided by the ISP. You also have larger security concerns than DNS.
>
> If what you are saying is you have a non-ISA non-SBS environment with a
> firewall appliance you can usually use this appliance as the DNS server
> for your workstations provided you buy one in the $200+ range. If you go
> with the $50 model, when then you're in the same spot as paragraph 1.
>
> Amy
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of ISA
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:54 AM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thor - a most excellent passage of DNS and network security.
>
> Unfortunately, I usually run into the typical client (as was this case)
> that only has one server, one gateway (pikes, conicwell etc) and a few
> clients.
>
> ISA, DMZ and hosting of anything themselves is out of the question
> (except that which is offered by SBS 2003).
>
>
> The fundamental question is how to best configure the network to allow
> the clients and server to resolve internet names (where ISA/DMZ are not
> present). I would assume that your clients are pointing to the DC/DNS
> server!?! From there, there are a few options: Configure DNS server to
> forward / not forward, configure it's NIC with for the ISP DNS server IP
> etc.
>
> Actually I suppose this question/scenario might not be best addressed
> from this list; since this list is dedicated to ISA which is an
> enterprise product not represented well in the SMALL small business
> market.
>
> Thanks again for the DNS brief - that'll be another one that I'll
> archive for my records.
>
> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>
> Network Blade Inc.
>
> 49 Marcy Street
>
> Somerset, NJ 08873
>
> 732-213-0600
>
> www.networkblade.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God)
> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:50 PM Posted To: ISA
> Conversation: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've found that many people seem to dance over the security
> ramifications of DNS/forwarders when designing an infrastructure. I had
> some off-list conversations about this, and thought that it may be
> valuable to fully flesh-out what I think the issues are and how to avoid
> them. Now's also probably a good time to share my "trick" regarding
> publicly available DNS and minimizing service exposure. So, for the
> benefit of those who are
> interested:
>
> When AD DNS is configured as a forwarder, all domain members using that
> DNS server will be able to resolve hostnames directly from their IP
> stack.
> There is no operational reason to have this-- when one considers that
> most spyware/malware/trojans/backdoors/shells/etc typically depend on
> hostname lookups for direct access to a resource, the capability of a
> client box to perform direct host lookups outside your network should
> (to me) be considered unwanted and un-needed. Personally, I qualify it
> as "dangerous."
>
> That's why I always configure my AD DNS with a root (.) zone- that way,
> only local zones may be queried by the client's stack. I typically only
> use web proxy clients for HTTP(S)/FTP where all DNS is proxied by the
> ISA box.
> If
> one needs direct DNS for another application (say DOS FTP) then use the
> FWC and all DNS will be resolved over the control channel, still being
> proxied by the ISA server.
>
> The ISA server itself will have whatever "public" DNS server configured
> in its stack so that it can do the resolution for the clients.
>
> Not only is direct client DNS "dangerous," but having an AD box set up
> as a forwarder is "dangerous" as well as the box must be configured to
> access a remote resource over TCP/UDP 53. This also means that you've
> opened that box up for incoming traffic on TCP/UDP 53 as well. Having
> static paths into your internal network from source port routing is
> crazy. I can push anything I want over 53, not just DNS (and have ;).
> Remember, the DNS filter is only for published DNS servers, not clients
> requesting DNS lookups.
>
> But there is the issue of one wanting complete control over host names
> and the need to publish your own DNS. This is what the DMZ is for. The
> DMZ box is set as a forwarding server, and the internal ISA box is set
> to use that box for all DNS requests. In this way, only the ISA box
> itself need to request DNS outside the internal network, and it is
> already protected.
> In
> this manner, there is no DNS leaving the internal network at all, and no
> static ports into the internal network-- only the ISA box looking up
> DNS, and only to that DMZ resource. The DNS server in the DMZ is
> protected by the border ISA box, which (where necessary) is publishing
> DNS to the DMZ for remote hosts to look up your domain information. And
> here the DNS filter is used.
>
> But you can get even better than that-- you can actually be fully in
> control of your own zone data without having to actually publish your
> DNS to the world if you have a decent ISP.
>
> Here's what I do for that-- I have DMZ DNS servers set up as primary DNS
> zones, and have told my ISP to set up their servers as secondary zones
> for my domains. The DMZ box can only zone transfer to the IP's of my
> ISP's DNS servers. Additionally the DMZ box is set to forward to my
> ISP's cache servers. So, at this point, all internal AD DNS is stopped
> at the controller, and only the ISA box can resolve DNS and only to the
> DMZ DNS server. My internal Exchange clusters' stack resolves to the AD
> controller, and they smart host deliver mail to my DMZ GFI gateway, so
> still no DNS leaving. The GFI box in the DMZ uses the DMZ DNS.
>
> The trick is that though I'm primary DNS, and though any changes I make
> to my DNS hosts are immediately replicated to my ISP as secondary DNS,
> I've registered my DNS with the domain registry as my *ISP* being
> primary.
> So
> the world resolves my host names via my *ISP's* DNS servers, not *mine*.
> I
> don't even have to publish DNS at all.
>
> The end result is that no DNS requests leave my internal network at all,
> except for a single DNS box in the DMZ that can only resolve to the ISP
> DNS caches. There is no publishing at all, no internal paths, no vulns,
> nothing at all since the world resolves to the ISP boxes yet I have full
> control over all host name entries.
>
> It's a pretty tight config.
>
> t
>
>
>
> On 10/18/06 11:01 AM, "Thomas W Shinder" <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh
> to
> all:
>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The T-Man is definitely right about this.
>>
>> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
>> Site: www.isaserver.org
>> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
>> MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of
>>> God)
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:52 PM
>>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>
>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Why do your internal clients need to resolve DNS directly? I never
>>> ever use forwarders on my AD boxes. I always create root zones on my
>
>>> AD DNS servers and only use ISA to resolve DNS for web proxy/fw
>>> clients.
>>>
>>> That's where what I consider "true" security and separation comes
>>> from.
>>>
>>> t
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/18/06 9:13 AM, "ISA" <ISA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all:
>>>
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This actually has happened with and without forwarders -
>>>>
>>>> Steve, I interpret your suggestion as using only the Root Hints?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>>
>>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>>
>>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>>
>>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>>
>>>> 732-213-0600
>>>>
>>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Moffat
>>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:08 PM Posted To: ISA
>>>> Conversation: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> FWIW.....I have 2 caching only DNS Servers that I setup to use as
>>>> forwarders for my AD DNS Servers, when I use them, I get
>>> the very same
>>>> issue. If I however, remove them from the forwarders
>>> section, I have no
>>>> DNS Issues at all whatsoever, anytime.
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 1:03 PM
>>>> To: ISA Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Mike:
>>>>
>>>> I will try clearing the cache - but this happens now about everyday
>>>> (morning usually). I really have to find the source of the problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>>
>>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>>
>>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>>
>>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>>
>>>> 732-213-0600
>>>>
>>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Michael Ross
>>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:01 PM Posted To: ISA
>>>> Conversation: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Windows 2003 DNS servers?
>>>> Believe it or not, ive seen that . It's a cache pollution type of
>>>> behavior, with no logging or other signs to prove that.
>>>> Try to clear the DNS cache next time and see if it helps.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:59 AM
>>>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Steve: Funny you should say that because I've done that a few times.
>>>>
>>>> DNS stops - I removed the forwards - Restart DNS - DNS works.
>>>> DNS stops - I change the forwards - Restart DNS - DNS works.
>>>>
>>>> I want to blame my server but I'm just not sure where the
>>> failure is.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>>
>>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>>
>>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>>
>>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>>
>>>> 732-213-0600
>>>>
>>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Moffat
>>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:55 AM Posted To: ISA
>>>> Conversation: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Remove the forwarders.....then see how fast your Internet speed
>>>> gets...:)
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:49 PM
>>>> To: ISA Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Hello All -
>>>>
>>>> This might be off-topic, but has anyone every had their
>>> Windows DNS/DC
>>>> server intermittently stop forwarding DNS requests?
>>>>
>>>> I checked with the ISP and they don't recognize and
>>> problems on their
>>>> end.
>>>>
>>>> JD
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