[isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
- From: "John T \(Lists\)" <johnlist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:41:58 -0700
Most banks you walk through one door to get to the teller. Yes, there is
security present, seen or not. Well call this a bank with a standard
firewall.
Some banks, you walk through two doors and in between them is a quaranteen
zone where each door will only open if the other is closed and there is a
metal detector there and probably some other stuff and if anything is even
slightly detected neither door will open and some one has to push a button
for the door to open. Yes, there is other security present, seen or not.
We'll call this bank with an ISA firewall.
So, just one firewall.
However, if you want to see the vault, well, that has its own locks and
security system as well.
The gist is, security by neccisity is multi layered. What and where the
layers are depends upon what is behind them.
If we are talking about Widget Extreme company of uptown Texas, an ISA
firewall is great. (Of course other internal security layers must also be
there such as desktop AV, usage policy, yadda yadda.)
If we are talking about First Gigabit Financial Clearing house of North
America, we're talking multi Enterprise versions ISA firewalls behind
hardened maintained routers or utilizing FE/BE Enterprise version ISA
servers.
John T
eServices For You
"Seek, and ye shall find!"
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn P. JOHNSTON [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Glenn P. JOHNSTON
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 7:44 PM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
With some time on my hands, I'm catching up on some old posts.
A few months ago I sat in on a presentation by a 'Network Security
speicalist' at a local developer conference, who was touting that you always
should have 2 layers of protection.
First a hardware based router on the perimiter that does basic SPI and only
forwards those ports internally to the ISA server, that you are running
services for.
And then something like a perimiter ISA to handle traffic between internal
and external and publish servers etc.
His main line was, that if the hardware device has a hole in it, through a
bad manufacturing design, faulty firmware, or simply being mis configured,
the same hole is not likely to exist in the ISA device, and visa a versa, so
either way you are still protected. Similarly, if someone turns up a hole in
W3K or ISA server, then the H/W router / firewall will still protect you, as
again, same hole is not likely in both places.
If you run like some companies do, minimum 6 months behind on patching of
windows and ISA etc, it might have some validity, but if you keep patching
on the O/S and ISA upto date, then I reckon you should be pretty well
covered.
What peoples thought on this, questions at the time from the floor, around
W3K / ISA2004 & keep the patching current should be sufficient, were ducked
and not really answered, and just side stepped with you should never rely on
a single device.
_____
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Egyptian Mind
Sent: Tue 27/Jun/2006 21:26
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
hahahahahahahahahahhahahah
Lost????
:) :) :) :) :)
Best Regards
Mohamed Saleh
Senior Network Administrator
College of Business Administration, CBA
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Tel: +966-02-6563199 ext 2521
Cell: - +966-50-2953591
!~` Yesterday is a History` ~!
!~` Tomorrow is a Mystery` ~!
!~` Today is a Gift` ~!
!~` So we call it ...............` ~!
!~` Present .......Simple` ~!
_____
From: "John T (Lists)" <johnlist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:36:46 -0700
I agree. Mohamed has lost. (Gee, who would have thought?) Besides, I am out
of pop corn.
John T
eServices For You
"Seek, and ye shall find!"
-----Original Message-----
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Simon Whale
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:18 PM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
Please ppl can we please stop the hardware firewall / software firewall
b1tch slap and pass the beers around and be friends again??
Simon
_____
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Egyptian Mind
Sent: 26 June 2006 20:09
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
and by the way,
in these links also, CISCO said that Fixes are avalibale
:) :)
Best Regards
Mohamed Saleh
Senior Network Administrator
College of Business Administration, CBA
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Tel: +966-02-6563199 ext 2521
Cell: - +966-50-2953591
!~` Yesterday is a History` ~!
!~` Tomorrow is a Mystery` ~!
!~` Today is a Gift` ~!
!~` So we call it ...............` ~!
!~` Present .......Simple` ~!
_____
From: "Thomas W Shinder" <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:12:20 -0500
History of PIX flaws:
http://secunia.com/product/706/
http://secunia.com/product/59/
http://secunia.com/product/56/
http://secunia.com/product/6102/
NON-History of ISA firewall flaws:
http://secunia.com/product/3687/ (ZERO, NONE, not any)
Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
Site: www.isaserver.org <http://www.isaserver.org/>
Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
MVP -- ISA Firewalls
_____
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Egyptian Mind
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 10:28 AM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your suggestion , Steve
It's realy appreciated, but would you take a look to this results after
rearranging them by last modified,
http://search.securityfocus.com/swsearch?query=ISA+vulnerability
<http://search.securityfocus.com/swsearch?query=ISA+vulnerability&sbm=/&subm
it=Search!&metaname=alldoc&sort=swishlastmodified>
&sbm=%2F&submit=Search%21&metaname=alldoc&sort=swishlastmodified
and, this special link, is written by researcher called Steve too :)
http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/433075
and if we search more, we will find more; about both, ISA or PIX or even
watchgurad,
as there is no full protected firewall; hardware or software, but we are
just doing our best to protect our network from vulnerability by increasing
the numbers of cascading gates, with different classes,
but you know what ; I made something to my network....
My external router has no real IP...
it's just a local loop to the ISP , so that , I put the ISP security door as
the front one,
Increasing cascading different gates ,
What do you think about it?
Best Regards
Mohamed Saleh
Senior Network Administrator
College of Business Administration, CBA
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Tel: +966-02-6563199 ext 2521
Cell: - +966-50-2953591
!~` Yesterday is a History` ~!
!~` Tomorrow is a Mystery` ~!
!~` Today is a Gift` ~!
!~` So we call it ...............` ~!
!~` Present .......Simple` ~!
_____
From: "Steve Lunn" <Steve.Lunn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:42:28 +0100
Can I suggest that you actually read that list of vulnerabilities that you
just posted as they all relate to ISA 2000 and not ISA 2004.
Regards,
Steve
Steve Lunn
Technical Support Analyst - Microsoft MCP
engage Mutual Assurance
DDI: 01423 855101 Fax: 01423 855181
_____
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Egyptian Mind
Sent: 26 June 2006 13:40
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
All right, Jim
I didn't expect this bad atitude from someone supposed to be well educated
and has a good technical knowledge as you have shown your self,
and by the way, no body is perfect , I f you see that you know everything,
it's a bug mistake..
Knowing how the OS operating, and dealing with packets, throw RAM and
processor,.. etc. will be easy if you r spend your life in this field, and
your education is corosponding this issue.. ( Computing, processing and
telecommunications), won't be ??
And every one know that PIX is layer 4 device not like ISA Layer 7,
so Greg,,,,, what I was saying is that PIX is more secure than ISA till
layer 4 processing..
In addition, I said in my first mail that I'm using the two boxes ( PIX and
ISA ) for dublication the security, and using ISA specially for controling
application per user ( as also I said b4)
and two doors are very good defender than one door only ofcourse,
***
about the site u send Jim, I think you should select a site that revile PIX
and give the glory to ISA , as I found the following link in this site too,
saying 47 result about vulnerability in ISA
http://search.securityfocus.com/swsearch?sbm=%2F
<http://search.securityfocus.com/swsearch?sbm=/&metaname=alldoc&query=ISA+vu
lnerability> &metaname=alldoc&query=ISA+vulnerability
Finaly, I will close this issue from my side as I'm feel very sorry to this
bad attitude reaction as the concept of this list is to discuss everyone
issue and thoughts with eachother...., isn't it??
Best Regards
Mohamed Saleh
Senior Network Administrator
College of Business Administration, CBA
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Tel: +966-02-6563199 ext 2521
Cell: - +966-50-2953591
!~` Yesterday is a History` ~!
!~` Tomorrow is a Mystery` ~!
!~` Today is a Gift` ~!
!~` So we call it ...............` ~!
!~` Present .......Simple` ~!
_____
From: "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:35:29 -0700
>In response:
>#1 - "PIX is more secure than ISA because it's a 'hardware' firewall". This
is pure, unadulterated BS, propagated by the same 1d10t's that ignore the
*FACT* that PIX is nothing more than a custom OS (xNIX, usually). In fact,
I've only heard of *one* "hardware" firewall; that it is strictly a L3-only
box (much like your PIX)
>
>#2 - Speed & security are orthogonal. Security is demonstrated by
resilience in teh face of unwanted traffic; speed is merely doing it faster.
>
>#3 - You need to read up on how any OS (specifically Windows) network
functionality works. If you *ever* find packets being stored to disk before
being processed, throw that device out the door
>
>#4 - I posted this for Tony Su; maybe you'll get more use ot of it:
http://technet2.microsoft.com/WindowsServer/en/Library/823ca085-8b46-4870-a8
3e-8032637a87c81033.mspx After you've read up a bit, come back and rescind
this argument
>
>#5 - this means nothing of the sort; if you can demonstrate this assertion
with fact, then by all means do so. You should also go read up on how
processes communicate in Windows.
>
>#6 - Let's see; if I stop the PIX firewall services, the machine is also
open to attack <duh>.
>
>#7 - no machine of any sort has "unlimited" capabilities. If you really
believe that this is possible, you must not occupy the same physical world
as the rest of us.
>
>#8 - Based on this argument, ISA is also a "hardware" firewall as *all*
traffic inspection (not just L3 as in PIX) is performed in RAM. Not one
single packet ever leaves the motherboard except to enter or leave the
network itself.
>
>#9 - The "adaptive security mechanism" is L3-only. ISA policy engine and
packet filter driver operate all the way to L7. Thus, when the PIX is
allowing RPC traffic to teh internal host "because it asked for it", ISA is
blocking it as invalid traffic. Case in point; Blaster passed through every
PIX on the planet; ISA blocked it in every single case.
>
>#10 - is unclear at best. What's your point other than to show how you can
spew brand names?
>
>#11 - I noticed that you can research ISA issues, but you seem unable to
find PIX vulns? I wonder how that can be? Go out to www.securityfocus.com
and search under "Cisco" for "PIX Firewall". I see:
>Multiple Cisco Products WebSense Content Filtering Bypass Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/17883>
>2006-05-09
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/17883
>
>OpenSSL Denial of Service Vulnerabilities
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/9899>
>2006-05-05
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/9899
>
>Multiple Vendor TCP/IP Implementation ICMP Remote Denial Of Service
Vulnerabilities <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/13124>
>2006-03-22
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/13124
>
>Cisco PIX TCP SYN Packet Denial Of Service Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/15525>
>2006-03-10
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/15525
>
>Cisco Downloadable RADIUS Policies Information Disclosure Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/16025>
>2005-12-21
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/16025
>
>Cisco IPSec Unspecified IKE Traffic Denial Of Service Vulnerabilities
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/15401>
>2005-11-14
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/15401
>
>Multiple Vendor TCP Sequence Number Approximation Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/10183>
>2004-04-20
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/10183
>
>Multiple Cisco PIX Remote Denial Of Service Vulnerabilities
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/9221>
>2003-12-15
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/9221
>
>OpenSSL ASN.1 Large Recursion Remote Denial Of Service Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/8970>
>2003-11-04
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/8970
>
>Cisco PIX ICMP Echo Request Network Address Translation Pool Exhaustion
Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/8754>
>2003-10-03
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/8754
>
>Multiple Vendor Session Initiation Protocol Vulnerabilities
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6904>
>2003-02-21
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6904
>
>Multiple Vendor SSH2 Implementation Buffer Overflow Vulnerabilities
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6407>
>2002-12-16
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6407
>
>Cisco PIX VPN Session Hijacking Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6211>
>2002-11-20
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6211
>
>Cisco PIX TACACS+/RADIUS HTTP Proxy Buffer Overrun Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6212>
>2002-11-20
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6212
>
>Cisco PIX Firewall Telnet/SSH Subnet Handling Denial Of Service
Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6110>
>2002-11-05
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6110
>
>Cisco SSH Denial of Service Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/5114>
>2002-06-27
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/5114
>
>Cisco Malformed SNMP Message Denial of Service Vulnerabilities
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/4132>
>2002-02-12
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/4132
>
>Cisco PIX Firewall SMTP Content Filtering Evasion Vulnerability
Re-Introduction <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/3365>
>2001-09-26
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/3365
>
>Cisco PIX TACACS+ Denial of Service Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2551>
>2001-04-06
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2551
>
>SSH CRC-32 Compensation Attack Detector Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2347>
>2001-02-08
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2347
>
>PKCS #1 Version 1.5 Session Key Retrieval Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2344>
>2001-02-06
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2344
>
>Cisco PIX PASV Mode FTP Internal Address Disclosure Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1877>
>2000-10-03
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1877
>
>Cisco PIX Firewall SMTP Content Filtering Evasion Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1698>
>2000-09-19
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1698
>
>Cisco Secure PIX Firewall Forged TCP RST Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1454>
>2000-07-10
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1454
>
>Multiple Firewall Vendor FTP "ALG" Client Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1045>
>2000-03-10
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1045
>
>Multiple Firewall Vendor FTP Server Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/979>
>2000-02-09
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/979
>
>Cisco PIX Firewall Manager File Exposure
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/691>
>1998-08-31
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/691
>
>Cisco PIX and CBAC Fragmentation Attack
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/690>
>1998-08-18
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/690
>
>Well, waddayano; seems like PIX takes this particular prize.
>
>#12 - this is nothing more than another indication of your vast Windows /
ISA ignorance
>
>Please go educate yourself before making such claims, or at least ask Tony
Su for advice.
>
>________________________________
>
>From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Egyptian Mind
>Sent: Sun 6/25/2006 2:32 AM
>To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
>
>
>http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>Dears,
>
>
>
>I'm sorry for not continuing mailing about this issue, but I was quit busy
in upgrading in our network infrastructure, but I should tell you that I was
really surprised by the 160 mails they were in my inbox about this issue..
>
>It means that this matter has gained a lot of attentions to most of members
here in ISA List... I've really get amused by these mails which come from
different members with different cultures and experiences about using
hardware or software as a firewall boundary, although that some of you have
taking this issue as some kind of joke, or to get amused by mocking ...
:-):-):-)
>
>Anyway, I've really get amused by your mail, TOM, It was really funny and
your way of talking and mocking the Idea is very interesting... Honestly, I
laughed for 15 minutes ; none-stop when I was reading your blog
:-):-):-):-):-) (( It does not mean ridiculing of you, but it means that
your way of present your Idea is really interesting :-) :-):-)
>
>But let's start examine this issue in neutrality way... "and let me borrow
your link for ' ISA Server 2006 Firewall Core' which u have send as you ask"
:-)
>
>
>
>First: I didn't say that PIX is the most secure firewall in the world, and
' Supernova; The greatest hacker' can grantee this, I just said that PIX is
more secure than ISA server, which is our issue here...( I mean that PIX as
a Hardware firewall, is more secure than ISA as a software firewall)
>
>Second: you say that " Faster is not the better" and you repeated it in a
very interesting way, but I think you should look at " ISA Server Firewall
Core " in this paragraph:::::
>
>"""" Firewall Engine ( Firewall Packet Engine)
>
>Handling these operations in Kernal Mode, improves both performance and
security. """""
>
>This means that Microsoft tends to increase the performance of firewall
service and security service in ISA to make it faster as possible :-).
>
>Third: ISA 2006 firewall core depends on Network Driver Interface
Specification ( NDIS) and Microsoft Networking Stack, that means that packet
should pass the network interface, the processor, RAM, harddisk, till it
reach the network driver in windows ( Kernal Layer) which located over the
hardware layer and assembly layer, in the other hand, the packet is
analyzed, interpreted and processed in hardware layer in any hardware
firewall.
>
>Fourth: The TCP/IP Stack in firewall core in Kernal mode is controlled by
windows , which refers to the previous point of even the firewall engine is
analyzing the packet in layer 3 and 4 before beginning processing, it will
of course reach layer 5 of windows which send it to the firewall engine in
kernel mode.... (( Does it make sense??? )) or it's better to analyze the
packet as soon as it reaches the network interface card, Isn't it??
>
>Fifth: In the purposed document
>
>" Policy Engine
>
>The policy engine communicates with all components of the ISA server
firewall core, both with the Kernal-mode firewall engine and the user-mode
firewall service, in addition the Policy Engine communicates with both
layers of application and web filters""
>
>This means that there are a lot of channels opened between Firewall core
and other applications running in ISA, which means " open ports", even this
ports are opened in Kernal-mode, but it's still opened port :-)
>
>Sixth: These are some comments gathering from viewing just the first three
papers of Microsoft Document, and I will not telling the comments getting
from the rest of this document, or the mail will be too long :-) to read,
but just I'd like to present this comment written in the document as my last
word about this document;
>
>" Note The firewall engine driver is the root of the firewall dependency
tree. Stopping the firewall engine driver ( by using net stop fweng /y at
the command prompt) also stops the other Firewall components, which opens
the computer to all network traffic """
>
>Open to all network traffic !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, it means fully
penetrated... how could it be that one command can penetrate my network to
all attacks?????? ... it does not make sense at all, Does it??
>
>Seventh: you compares the ISA server 2006 ( which is last release) with PIX
firewall, which is in market over than 20 years, and you didn't specify
which version,, Microsoft has ISA 2000, 2004, 2006... But CISCO has
501,501E,506E,515,525, and the greatest PIX 535, which has unlimited number
of users ad unlimited numbers of concurrent VPN Connections ....
>
>Eighth : The OS of PIX is too small which can be loaded in RAM and some
portion of processor, It doesn't mean just that it will be faster and faster
than any software firewall, but I mean that the packet inspector process
will be done at the hardware level, and in fact it happens in the assembly
level... More than that, every interface in PIX has it's own firewall
policy, firewall engine, access control,,, although you manage all
interfaces by one screen, but in fact this screen is collecting policies and
access controls and firewall services for all interfaces,,, as the OS of PIX
divide itself to make each interface has it's own control, so no need to
contact with the core OS or the kernel for any operations....
>
>Ninth: The adaptive security algorithm, included in PIX, will never allow
an incoming traffic to go inside, except if there is a request for this
traffic from inside, and it should match a random signature it has been
given to the requested traffic, or if u make a policy on the outside
interface to allow this traffic to come in, and is called ADAPTIVE , it
means that it will strengthen it self upon the signature of the attack or
the requested traffic and how it will be filtered to insure that this " man
in the middle" will not gain access though the incoming traffic.
>
>Tenth: I was talking here about PIX 535 which support all clustering
features, as well as redundancy, as the corresponding issue is between ISA
and PIX, as a hardware and software firewall, but If we go to market, we
will find Watch Guard, Cyber Guard, Alphafilter, CyberCom, D-Link,.....etc
as well as we will see Symantec , Mcafee, ....etc,,, and for linux there are
a lot of firewall software like Netfilter
>
>Eleventh: you talked about ISA 2006, and you give me a document coming from
Microsoft itself, so what will mama said about her child???????
>
>So if you want this, you can take a look of the following links ::
>
> PIX 535
>
>http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/vpndevc/ps2030/products_data_sheet09
186a008007d05d.html
>
>http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/vpndevc/ps2030/products_data_sheet09
186a00801daa53.html
>
>ASA 5500
>
>http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps6120/products_data_sheet0900aecd80293
0c5.html
>
>http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps6120/products_data_sheet0900aecd80404
916.html
>
>Note that ASA 5500 has been developed in order to satisfy market need of
application filtering and Active Directory Integrated..
>
>But if we go to neutralized sites, we will find that most of them are
preferred PIX than ISA as a front door
>
>and I will not go far away,
>
>This link is in ISASERVER.org itself with your handwriting about ISA 2000,
which shown some issue
>
>http://www.isaserver.org/articles/Microsoft_Confirms_DoS_Vulnerability_in_I
SA_Server_2000.html
>
>right?
>
>And also :
>
>http://forums.isaserver.org/m_240057200/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#240057210
>
>and please see this
>
>http://www.critical-error.com/Article724.phtml
>
>http://www.techspot.com/vb/archive/index/t-10247.html
>
>http://www.checkpoint.com/defense/advisories/public/2006/printer/cpai_print
-03-Jun.html
>
>http://www.networksecurityarchive.org/html/NTBugtraq/2004-11/msg00009.html
>
>
>
> Which means that you should be standby for any articles and newsgroup to
find out if there any discover Vulnerability, and not just using windows
update"
>
>Twelfth: There is a fact that any GUI operating system should open ports to
hardware to operate well, and this is refer to fact that the first 1024
ports in windows you can't change or reconfigure, and the other act that the
most secure operating system till now is UNIX , as it is a command prompt
operating system and have never been hacked except when it become LINUX,
with a GUI.
>
>And even if it has been hacked, it records the least amount of hacking
processes than windows ofcourse.
>
>Finally : No Doubt that Microsoft is the greatest marketing company in the
world, as it depends on user need, and nothing is more important to user
more than the fancy of GUI , Graphical User Interface,
>
>I think most of you agree with me that this concept ; I mean GUI, is the
main reason for Bill Jates treasure which made up his riches, isn't it???
>
>Now, can you tell me
>
>- Why the great companies and the effective and sensitive corporations (
Like BMW, Aramco, Nokia ) prefer to put a hardware firewall instead of ISA
server?? ( This is a fact, I see it myself )
>
>
>
>- Why most of multinational banks ( Like CIB, HSBC ) put more than three
cascading hardware firewalls as it's front door to internet??? ( This is a
fact, I see it myself)
>
>
>
>- Why Microsoft itself didn't use any of it's products, in it's server
farms, instead they using UNIX for mail server as an example??? ( you can
check it your self by reading the arguments shown to you in the address bar
of internet explorer when you open your hotmail inbox, and ask a good web
programmer about it )
>
>
>
>- Why you don't recommend ISA server for DAN as the cheapest way for a
firewall system, as he can install it on a high hardware qualified
workstation, not should be a server, if you think that ISA server can
manage?????
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards
> Mohamed Saleh
>
> Senior Network Administrator
> College of Business Administration, CBA
> Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
> Tel: +966-02-6563199 ext 2521
> Cell: - +966-50-2953591
>
>
>!~` Yesterday is a History` ~!
>!~` Tomorrow is a Mystery` ~!
>!~` Today is a Gift` ~!
>!~` So we call it ...............` ~!
>!~` Present .......Simple` ~!
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>
> From: "D PIETRUSZKA USWRN INTERLINK INFRA" <DPietruszka@xxxxxx>
> Reply-To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 07:16:07 -0400
> >http://www.ISAserver.org
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Probably you need to move your test to a more realistic and complex
> >scenario.
> >
> >Regards
> >Diego R. Pietruszka
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
> >Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 6:28 PM
> >To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
> >
> >http://www.ISAserver.org
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >In my tests, I found them to be the same.
> >
> >I have one box running ISA 2000 that hasn't been upgraded or service
> >packed for over two years, and it's been running without stop for that
> >period of time. This is on a white box install.
> >
> >There really isn't any difference in stability from my perspective. If
> >you don't treat it like a workstation, don't install non-ISA firewall
> >related services on it, it will run as long as any PIX. And the good
> >thing is, it updates itself. Unlike the PIX, which does need to be
> >updated like any other device, it doesn't do it itself and most
> >"hardware" firewall admins just ignore it. Not very smart or secure, but
> >I see that all the time in the field. After all, it's hardware, it must
> >be secure [sic].
> >
> >NOT.
> >
> >Tom
> >
> >Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> >Site: www.isaserver.org
> >Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> >Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> >MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of D
> > > PIETRUSZKA USWRN INTERLINK INFRA
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 2:02 PM
> > > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
> > >
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Do you know the difference between stability (what I mentioned on my
> > > email) and vulnerability?
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Diego R. Pietruszka
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 1:51 PM
> > > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
> > >
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > This is a completely specious argument, with absolutely no basis in
> > > historical fact.
> > > When you can demonstrate that a properly-configured ISA server has
> > > *EVER* been compromised due to a Windows vulnerability, this
> > > claim *may*
> > > warrant consideration.
> > >
> > > Until then, it's nothing more or less than simple punditious
> > > regurgitation.
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > Jim Harrison
> > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> > > http://isatools.org
> > > Read the help / books / articles!
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On Behalf Of D PIETRUSZKA USWRN INTERLINK INFRA
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 08:53
> > > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
> > >
> > > I completely agree that ISA is far more secure than PIX, the
> > > only part I
> > > would concede to PIX (and that is why is still on the market) is the
> > > stability and that is because don't run on windows as ISA do.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Diego R. Pietruszka
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 11:05 AM
> > > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Cc: isapros-repost@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi EM,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You are right. PIX is not very secure. It's a router with
> > > some advanced
> > > ACLs and does neat routing tricks. But when it comes to
> > > security, you're
> > > very very wrong that it's more secure. Hardware doesn't fall from
> > > heaven, and all "hardware" is controlled by software, and
> > > Syphco's core
> > > compentancy is not application protection -- it's routing and
> > > switching.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree that there is no comparison between PIX and ISA -- only a fool
> > > would be convinced that they get any real security from a PIX, becuase
> > > they never took the time to learn about network security and what the
> > > end game was. Check Point? That's another story. Like the ISA
> > > firewall,
> > > Check Point is a so-called "software firewall" (something to pothead
> > > "hardware" firewall guys often forget). Check Point is better than ISA
> > > and you pay a LOT for that. However, a PIX is a joke and I think the
> > > more thoughtful firewall admins out there realize they've
> > > been hyMOtized
> > > by the Syphco sales reps.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PIX is a puppy dog, a little terrier, a laptop or a pretty little
> > > Persian kitty cat -- the ISA firewall is the brobdingnagian that
> > > provides your real security. The PIX is an emotional blanket,
> > > a network
> > > Prozac, an expensive and illusory work for security fiction.
> > > The PIX is
> > > the emperor with no clothes and is front of my hacked Web sites and
> > > networks than any other firewall.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You mention that the PIX software is "advanced" -- I'll give you the
> > > opposite perspective and proffer that it's a trisomy 13 baby
> > > compared to
> > > the robust and healthy child that is the ISA firewall. No one has ever
> > > broken into an ISA firewall and I consider the ISA firewall
> > > mandatory. A
> > > PIX is nothing more than a historical superstition, a carry over from
> > > the dawn days of the Internet. I never never never never never never
> > > NEVER recommend putting a PIX in front or behind or anywhere near the
> > > ISA firewall (a Check Point? Sometimes that's useful for defense in
> > > depth -- Check Point, unlike PIX, is a real network security
> > > solution).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The PIX with worthless and weak. Who is it? What is it? What does it
> > > plan to do with it's life? (name that tune!) On the other
> > > hand, the ISA
> > > firewall is built by people who understand software, understand
> > > security, and is much more than a stupid router with a
> > > "firewall" decal
> > > slapped on its bezel.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The ISA firewall's VPN server is MUCH MORE SECURE than the simple PIX
> > > VPN. I've always wondered about the IQ of folks who have thought
> > > otherwise. It's probably not an intelligence issue, but just an
> > > ignorance issue, since they probably don't understand the
> > > weaknesses of
> > > the PIX VPN solution or the strengths of the ISA firewall's VPN
> > > solutions -- but that's par for the course for folks who've been
> > > hypmotized by the Syphco sales reps, and have had the implanted
> > > suggestions reinforced by the ABMer idiot echo chamber.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Faster is not more secure.
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Faster is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Faster is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Faster is NOT NOT NOT more secure
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Remember, PIX has many security vulnerabilies that you can
> > > check out at
> > > Secunia. Strangely enough, the ISA firewall has NONE. And
> > > don't feed me
> > > that tired old drivel about "but it runs on Windows". If you
> > > can show me
> > > how this is an issue after reading this
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/2006/prodinfo/Firewall_Corewp.mspx
> > > (which you won't do if you depend on your Syphco sales rep for tech
> > > info).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Finally, be careful about throwing Syphco PIX FUD around here. I've
> > > worked with the worthless PIX for a long time and studied it
> > > in depth. I
> > > know it's cr*p on a cracker and it survives because it's been
> > > grandfathered into the business. We're all now suffering badly because
> > > the "network guys" who are clueless lusers when it comes to understand
> > > application security, have hijacked network security and companies get
> > > hacked far more often than they should because these dolts are "port
> > > openers" and "port closers". The current situation has the clowns
> > > running the circus.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In conclusion, there are several neuroleptic medications I
> > > can recommend
> > > to anyone who seriously believes the worthless PIX is more secure than
> > > an ISA firewall.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > IMNHO,
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > P.S. You're welcome to borrow any of the creative phases I've included
> > > in this email. I only ask that you give the props :)
> > >
> > > Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > > Site: www.isaserver.org <http://www.isaserver.org/>
> > > Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > > Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> > > MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Egyptian Mind
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 9:01 AM
> > > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isalist] Nothing is secure like PIX
> > >
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dears,
> > >
> > > No doubt that ISA 2000 or 2004 or even 2006, have increased the
> > > possibility of controling user access,,, by allowing or denying the
> > > browsing or a tiny issue like downloding gif and not
> > > downloading jpg as
> > > an example..
> > >
> > > This shows how much we can control user action,,,
> > >
> > > Moreover, features like firewall services, securing VPN
> > > connection, Nating, Publishing web sites, etc.... are very helpfull
> > > features to make or Network Control is much easier...
> > >
> > > But Nothing is secure like PIX...
> > >
> > > I don't mean that PIX is more secure than ISA, or more capable
> > > of handling requests... I'm talking about features and design and even
> > > the hardware specification.... There is no comparison between ISA and
> > > PIX
> > >
> > > I'm here, in my network ; using two failover PIX and two
> > > clustering ISA servers as well.. every device has it's
> > > responsiblities...
> > >
> > > ISA is responisble for handling he request from users and
> > > filtering it depends on customized rules, and the great thing that ISA
> > > server is a domain member, so I can customized the rules directly to
> > > specific user ,,,
> > >
> > > PIX is my Huge Body Guard which stand infront of my Out Door, to
> > > filter any request come in or out my door... YEs ..( in or out ) not
> > > just in ... and it is built on a very advanced built-in
> > > program in the
> > > hardware it self, it is the adaptive security algorithm,
> > > which has alot
> > > of tools to scan the coming packet,... like if we said , the
> > > ultravoilet, infarraed, and eye scanner and everything...
> > >
> > > It's a very adaptive algorithm and it's very hard to
> > > penetrate,,, note that this alogorithm is working on every packet goes
> > > or come , also depend on your own cutomized rule you make on PIX,,,
> > >
> > > and instead that the windows how operates, the adaptive security
> > > algorithm are running using the same processing speed of it's
> > > processor,
> > > as it is already loaded in the PIX processor and rams..
> > >
> > > How faster do you think it will be !!!!!!?????
> > >
> > > it also has a complete secure process for VPN connection and
> > > PATING, NATING , ... etc
> > >
> > > But PIX is not function as layer 7 appliance, so we use ISA for
> > > this purpose,,, to control the Application layer and presentation
> > > layer... nothing more, nothing less,, and also because PIX is not
> > > integrating with Active Directory..
> > >
> > > Finally, PIX is mandatory for security, and ISA is mandatory for
> > > controling... but if we talked about the ability to be hacked
> > > , I think
> > > you will agree with me that hacking a program runing on
> > > Windows platform
> > > is much easier from penetrating program runing on security dedicated
> > > appliance........ (( you can ask Bill Jates about it ))
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Regards
> > >
> > > Mohamed Saleh
> > >
> > >
> > > Senior Network Administrator
> > > College of Business Administration, CBA
> > > Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
> > > Tel: +966-02-6563199 ext 2521
> > > Cell: - +966-50-2953591
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > !~` Yesterday is a History` ~!
> > >
> > > !~` Tomorrow is a Mystery` ~!
> > >
> > > !~` Today is a Gift` ~!
> > >
> > > !~` So we call it ...............` ~!
> > >
> > > !~` Present .......Simple` ~!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "Shane Mullins" <tsmullins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Reply-To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Subject: [isalist] Re: Hardware.... (cringe) ...firewall
> > > ?
> > > Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:12:08 -0400
> > > >http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > >-------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Good Deal,
> > > >
> > > > We have used ISA since Proxy 2.0. I really liked the
> > > upgrade
> > > >from 2.0 to ISA 2000. But, I really really like ISA
> > > 2004. Some of
> > > >the new features are great, esp in the VPN areas,
> > > stateful packet
> > > >inspection. Also, I like the way ISA integrates into
> > > AD, this is
> > > >huge if you are a Windows shop. Also, there are some
> > > third party
> > > >snap ins that are very helpful.
> > > >
> > > >Shane
> > > >
> > > >PS I also really enjoyed reading your ISA 2004 book.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas W Shinder"
> > > ><tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 10:33 AM
> > > >Subject: [isalist] Re: Hardware.... (cringe)
> > > ...firewall ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > >-------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >Hi Shane,
> > > >
> > > >No problems, that's how I took it! :)
> > > >
> > > >The PIX tax reminds of when in the middle ages you
> > > could pay the
> > > >church
> > > >to absolve you of your sins. The situation here is that
> > > they're
> > > >paying
> > > >Cisco for their sin of slothfullness. Slothful in that
> > > they haven't
> > > >spent the time and effort to understand real network
> > > security and
> > > >blindly pay a router and switch company big money to
> > > protect
> > > >comporate
> > > >data (does anyone see the paradox in this?)
> > > >
> > > >Thanks!
> > > >Tom
> > > >
> > > >Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > > >Site: www.isaserver.org
> > > >Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > > >Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> > > >MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>[mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> > > Shane Mullins
> > > >>Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 7:56 AM
> > > >>To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>Subject: [isalist] Re: Hardware.... (cringe)
> > > ...firewall ?
> > > >>
> > > >>http://www.ISAserver.org
> > >
> > > >>-------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >>Hey Thomas,
> > > >>
> > > >> I meant that to be a plug for ISA 2004. I think ISA
> > > 2004
> > > >>is great. We
> > > >>have two ISA 2004 boxes that firewall and provide
> > > internet
> > > >>access for 3,500
> > > >>machines. ISA 2004 has been rock solid for us. ISA
> > > 2004
> > > >>provides advanced
> > > >>logging and caching functions that a "hardware"
> > > firewall
> > > >>cannot provide. I
> > > >>have nothing against unix, but ISA 2004 is great.
> > > >> We could have paid 50k for a single pix to provide
> > > >>firewall services.
> > > >>Then signed up for a 5k a year maintenance agreement
> > > (so we could
> > > >>rcv
> > > >>updates). And all machines need updates, even
> > > "hardware"
> > > >>firewalls have an
> > > >>OS. And ISA still does so much more.
> > > >>
> > > >>Shane
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > On 6/19/06, Thomas W Shinder <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > wrote:
> > > >> >> http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > >> >>
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Yes, it's that good. Go Daddy and the ISP are
> > > clueless.
> > > >>Have you ever
> > > >> >> talked to your ISP's "tech guys" who make these
> > > >>recommendations? Let's
> > > >> >> just say that the typical interaction leaves you
> > > with the
> > > >>feeling that
> > > >> >> they're not on the top of the firewall and
> > > networking food
> > > >>chains :)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > > >> >> Site: www.isaserver.org
> > > >> >> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > > >> >> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> > > >> >> MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> >> > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >> >> > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> > > Of Shane
> > > >>Mullins
> > > >> >> > Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 1:10 PM
> > > >> >> > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >> >> > Subject: [isalist] Re: Hardware.... (cringe)
> > > ...firewall ?
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > >> >> >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > ISA 2K4 is really good? There is an eval
> > > version. Maybe he
> > > >> >> > would let you
> > > >> >> > try that.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Shane
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> >> > From: "G.Waleed Kavalec" <kavalec@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > >> >> > To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >> >> > Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 1:08 PM
> > > >> >> > Subject: [isalist] Hardware.... (cringe)
> > > ...firewall ?
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > >> >> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >> > > My boss has been talking to our ISP and also
> > > to some folks
> > > >> >> > at GoDaddy.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > Both use - and recommend - hardware firewall
> > > solutions.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > What do I tell him? He is poised to make one
> > > of those
> > > >>classic PHB
> > > >> >> > > decisions.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > (currently on ISA 2K)
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > --
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > G. Waleed Kavalec
> > > >> >> > > -------------------------
> > > >> >> > > Why are we all in this handbasket
> > > >> >> > > and where is it going so fast?
> > > >> >> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >> > > List Archives:
> > > //www.freelists.org/archives/isalist/
> > > >> >> > ISA Server
> > > >> >> > > Newsletter:
> > > http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp
> > > >> >> > ISA Server
> > > >> >> > > Articles and Tutorials:
> > > >> >> > http://www.isaserver.org/articles_tutorials/ ISA
> > > >> >> > > Server Blogs:
> > > >> >> > > http://blogs.isaserver.org/
> > > >> >> >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >> > > Visit TechGenix.com for more information about
> > > our other
> > > >>sites:
> > > >> >> > > http://www.techgenix.com
> > > >> >> >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >> > -- >
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> > > >> > Why are we all in this handbasket
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><< winmail.dat >>
engage Mutual Assurance is a trading name of Homeowners Friendly Society
Limited (HFSL), Registered and Incorporated under the Friendly Societies Act
1992, Reg. No. 964F, and its wholly owned subsidiary engage Mutual Funds
Limited (eMFL), Reg. No. 3224780, HFSL and eMFL are both authorised and
regulated by the Financial Services Authority (FSA). HFSL's FSA Register no.
is 110072, eMFL's FSA Register no. is 181487. You can check this on the
FSA's Register by visiting the FSA's website http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register
or by contacting the FSA on 0845 606 1234
engage Mutual Investment Funds ICVC is an investment company with variable
capital. Registered in England No. IC00044.
engage Mutual Administration Limited Reg. No. 4301736, engage Mutual
Services Limited Reg. No. 3088162 and Homeowners Membership Services Limited
Reg. No. 3091667 are non-regulated limited companies.
United Kingdom Civil Service Benefit Society (UKCSBS) and United Kingdom
Armed Forces Benefit Society (UKAFBS) are trading styles of Homeowners
Friendly Society Limited
All registered at Hornbeam Park Avenue, Harrogate. HG2 8XE. Tel: 01423
855000 Web: http://www.engagemutual.com <http://www.engagemutual.com/> This
e-mail is intended only for the person named as recipient. The contents are
confidential. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, please
notify us as soon as possible and delete it. If you are not the intended
recipient of the e-mail, any use by you is prohibited.
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