[isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
- From: "Young, Gerald G" <Gerald.Young@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:16:51 -0500
And by unanimous decision, ISA is the Heavyweight Firewall Champion of
the World! :-)
Come on, Mohamed, you didn't really think that comparison would fly, did
you? A lot of people throw the OSI model out there and as a proponent
for a L1-4 firewall solution, how can you possibly think that PIX is
more secure when exploits - those of the most serious nature - generally
work in L5-7? Unless you're confusing the TCP/IP stack model with the
OSI model.
Take for example the Ping of Death from years far gone. What layer did
the fault actually occur at?
The real thing to focus on isn't a firewall product. A firewall is
simply a means to mitigate a risk. You need to better understand that
risk in order to better know how to mitigate it.
When it comes to Microsoft networks, ISA does an extremely good job at
mitigating risks, especially in the layers I am generally the most
concerned about: L5-7.
Just my $.02.
Cordially yours,
Jerry G. Young II
MCSE (4.0/W2K)
Atlanta EES Implementation Team Lead
ECNS Microsoft Engineering
Unisys
11493 Sunset Hills Rd.
Reston, VA 20190
Office: 703-579-2727
Cell: 703-625-1468
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________________________________
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 1:12 PM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
History of PIX flaws:
http://secunia.com/product/706/
http://secunia.com/product/59/
http://secunia.com/product/56/
http://secunia.com/product/6102/
NON-History of ISA firewall flaws:
http://secunia.com/product/3687/ (ZERO, NONE, not any)
Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
Site: www.isaserver.org <http://www.isaserver.org/>
Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
MVP -- ISA Firewalls
________________________________
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Egyptian Mind
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 10:28 AM
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your suggestion , Steve
It's realy appreciated, but would you take a look to this
results after rearranging them by last modified,
http://search.securityfocus.com/swsearch?query=ISA+vulnerability&sbm=%2F
&submit=Search%21&metaname=alldoc&sort=swishlastmodified
and, this special link, is written by researcher called Steve
too :)
http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/433075
and if we search more, we will find more; about both, ISA or PIX
or even watchgurad,
as there is no full protected firewall; hardware or software,
but we are just doing our best to protect our network from vulnerability
by increasing the numbers of cascading gates, with different classes,
but you know what ; I made something to my network....
My external router has no real IP...
it's just a local loop to the ISP , so that , I put the ISP
security door as the front one,
Increasing cascading different gates ,
What do you think about it?
Best Regards
Mohamed Saleh
Senior Network Administrator
College of Business Administration, CBA
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Tel: +966-02-6563199 ext 2521
Cell: - +966-50-2953591
!~` Yesterday is a History` ~!
!~` Tomorrow is a Mystery` ~!
!~` Today is a Gift` ~!
!~` So we call it ...............` ~!
!~` Present .......Simple` ~!
________________________________
From: "Steve Lunn" <Steve.Lunn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:42:28 +0100
Can I suggest that you actually read that list of
vulnerabilities that you just posted as they all relate to ISA 2000 and
not ISA 2004.
Regards,
Steve
Steve Lunn
Technical Support Analyst - Microsoft MCP
engage Mutual Assurance
DDI: 01423 855101 Fax: 01423 855181
________________________________
From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Egyptian Mind
Sent: 26 June 2006 13:40
To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like PIX
All right, Jim
I didn't expect this bad atitude from someone supposed
to be well educated and has a good technical knowledge as you have shown
your self,
and by the way, no body is perfect , I f you see that
you know everything, it's a bug mistake..
Knowing how the OS operating, and dealing with packets,
throw RAM and processor,.. etc. will be easy if you r spend your life in
this field, and your education is corosponding this issue.. ( Computing,
processing and telecommunications), won't be ??
And every one know that PIX is layer 4 device not like
ISA Layer 7,
so Greg,,,,, what I was saying is that PIX is more
secure than ISA till layer 4 processing..
In addition, I said in my first mail that I'm using the
two boxes ( PIX and ISA ) for dublication the security, and using ISA
specially for controling application per user ( as also I said b4)
and two doors are very good defender than one door only
ofcourse,
***
about the site u send Jim, I think you should select a
site that revile PIX and give the glory to ISA , as I found the
following link in this site too, saying 47 result about vulnerability in
ISA
http://search.securityfocus.com/swsearch?sbm=%2F&metaname=alldoc&query=I
SA+vulnerability
<http://search.securityfocus.com/swsearch?sbm=/&metaname=alldoc&query=IS
A+vulnerability>
Finaly, I will close this issue from my side as I'm feel
very sorry to this bad attitude reaction as the concept of this list is
to discuss everyone issue and thoughts with eachother...., isn't it??
Best Regards
Mohamed Saleh
Senior Network Administrator
College of Business Administration, CBA
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Tel: +966-02-6563199 ext 2521
Cell: - +966-50-2953591
!~` Yesterday is a History` ~!
!~` Tomorrow is a Mystery` ~!
!~` Today is a Gift` ~!
!~` So we call it ...............` ~!
!~` Present .......Simple` ~!
________________________________
From: "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like
PIX
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:35:29 -0700
>In response:
>#1 - "PIX is more secure than ISA because it's
a 'hardware' firewall". This is pure, unadulterated BS, propagated by
the same 1d10t's that ignore the *FACT* that PIX is nothing more than a
custom OS (xNIX, usually). In fact, I've only heard of *one* "hardware"
firewall; that it is strictly a L3-only box (much like your PIX)
>
>#2 - Speed & security are orthogonal. Security
is demonstrated by resilience in teh face of unwanted traffic; speed is
merely doing it faster.
>
>#3 - You need to read up on how any OS
(specifically Windows) network functionality works. If you *ever* find
packets being stored to disk before being processed, throw that device
out the door
>
>#4 - I posted this for Tony Su; maybe you'll
get more use ot of it:
http://technet2.microsoft.com/WindowsServer/en/Library/823ca085-8b46-487
0-a83e-8032637a87c81033.mspx After you've read up a bit, come back and
rescind this argument
>
>#5 - this means nothing of the sort; if you can
demonstrate this assertion with fact, then by all means do so. You
should also go read up on how processes communicate in Windows.
>
>#6 - Let's see; if I stop the PIX firewall
services, the machine is also open to attack <duh>.
>
>#7 - no machine of any sort has "unlimited"
capabilities. If you really believe that this is possible, you must not
occupy the same physical world as the rest of us.
>
>#8 - Based on this argument, ISA is also a
"hardware" firewall as *all* traffic inspection (not just L3 as in PIX)
is performed in RAM. Not one single packet ever leaves the motherboard
except to enter or leave the network itself.
>
>#9 - The "adaptive security mechanism" is
L3-only. ISA policy engine and packet filter driver operate all the way
to L7. Thus, when the PIX is allowing RPC traffic to teh internal host
"because it asked for it", ISA is blocking it as invalid traffic. Case
in point; Blaster passed through every PIX on the planet; ISA blocked it
in every single case.
>
>#10 - is unclear at best. What's your point
other than to show how you can spew brand names?
>
>#11 - I noticed that you can research ISA
issues, but you seem unable to find PIX vulns? I wonder how that can be?
Go out to www.securityfocus.com and search under "Cisco" for "PIX
Firewall". I see:
>Multiple Cisco Products WebSense Content
Filtering Bypass Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/17883>
>2006-05-09
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/17883
>
>OpenSSL Denial of Service Vulnerabilities
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/9899>
>2006-05-05
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/9899
>
>Multiple Vendor TCP/IP Implementation ICMP
Remote Denial Of Service Vulnerabilities
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/13124>
>2006-03-22
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/13124
>
>Cisco PIX TCP SYN Packet Denial Of Service
Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/15525>
>2006-03-10
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/15525
>
>Cisco Downloadable RADIUS Policies Information
Disclosure Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/16025>
>2005-12-21
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/16025
>
>Cisco IPSec Unspecified IKE Traffic Denial Of
Service Vulnerabilities <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/15401>
>2005-11-14
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/15401
>
>Multiple Vendor TCP Sequence Number
Approximation Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/10183>
>2004-04-20
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/10183
>
>Multiple Cisco PIX Remote Denial Of Service
Vulnerabilities <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/9221>
>2003-12-15
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/9221
>
>OpenSSL ASN.1 Large Recursion Remote Denial Of
Service Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/8970>
>2003-11-04
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/8970
>
>Cisco PIX ICMP Echo Request Network Address
Translation Pool Exhaustion Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/8754>
>2003-10-03
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/8754
>
>Multiple Vendor Session Initiation Protocol
Vulnerabilities <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6904>
>2003-02-21
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6904
>
>Multiple Vendor SSH2 Implementation Buffer
Overflow Vulnerabilities <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6407>
>2002-12-16
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6407
>
>Cisco PIX VPN Session Hijacking Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6211>
>2002-11-20
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6211
>
>Cisco PIX TACACS+/RADIUS HTTP Proxy Buffer
Overrun Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6212>
>2002-11-20
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6212
>
>Cisco PIX Firewall Telnet/SSH Subnet Handling
Denial Of Service Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6110>
>2002-11-05
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/6110
>
>Cisco SSH Denial of Service Vulnerability
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/5114>
>2002-06-27
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/5114
>
>Cisco Malformed SNMP Message Denial of Service
Vulnerabilities <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/4132>
>2002-02-12
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/4132
>
>Cisco PIX Firewall SMTP Content Filtering
Evasion Vulnerability Re-Introduction
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/3365>
>2001-09-26
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/3365
>
>Cisco PIX TACACS+ Denial of Service
Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2551>
>2001-04-06
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2551
>
>SSH CRC-32 Compensation Attack Detector
Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2347>
>2001-02-08
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2347
>
>PKCS #1 Version 1.5 Session Key Retrieval
Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2344>
>2001-02-06
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/2344
>
>Cisco PIX PASV Mode FTP Internal Address
Disclosure Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1877>
>2000-10-03
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1877
>
>Cisco PIX Firewall SMTP Content Filtering
Evasion Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1698>
>2000-09-19
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1698
>
>Cisco Secure PIX Firewall Forged TCP RST
Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1454>
>2000-07-10
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1454
>
>Multiple Firewall Vendor FTP "ALG" Client
Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1045>
>2000-03-10
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/1045
>
>Multiple Firewall Vendor FTP Server
Vulnerability <http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/979>
>2000-02-09
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/979
>
>Cisco PIX Firewall Manager File Exposure
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/691>
>1998-08-31
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/691
>
>Cisco PIX and CBAC Fragmentation Attack
<http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/690>
>1998-08-18
>http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/690
>
>Well, waddayano; seems like PIX takes this
particular prize.
>
>#12 - this is nothing more than another
indication of your vast Windows / ISA ignorance
>
>Please go educate yourself before making such
claims, or at least ask Tony Su for advice.
>
>________________________________
>
>From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of
Egyptian Mind
>Sent: Sun 6/25/2006 2:32 AM
>To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like
PIX
>
>
>http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>Dears,
>
>
>
>I'm sorry for not continuing mailing about this
issue, but I was quit busy in upgrading in our network infrastructure,
but I should tell you that I was really surprised by the 160 mails they
were in my inbox about this issue..
>
>It means that this matter has gained a lot of
attentions to most of members here in ISA List... I've really get amused
by these mails which come from different members with different cultures
and experiences about using hardware or software as a firewall boundary,
although that some of you have taking this issue as some kind of joke,
or to get amused by mocking ... :-):-):-)
>
>Anyway, I've really get amused by your mail,
TOM, It was really funny and your way of talking and mocking the Idea is
very interesting... Honestly, I laughed for 15 minutes ; none-stop when
I was reading your blog :-):-):-):-):-) (( It does not mean ridiculing
of you, but it means that your way of present your Idea is really
interesting :-) :-):-)
>
>But let's start examine this issue in
neutrality way... "and let me borrow your link for ' ISA Server 2006
Firewall Core' which u have send as you ask" :-)
>
>
>
>First: I didn't say that PIX is the most secure
firewall in the world, and ' Supernova; The greatest hacker' can grantee
this, I just said that PIX is more secure than ISA server, which is our
issue here...( I mean that PIX as a Hardware firewall, is more secure
than ISA as a software firewall)
>
>Second: you say that " Faster is not the
better" and you repeated it in a very interesting way, but I think you
should look at " ISA Server Firewall Core " in this paragraph:::::
>
>"""" Firewall Engine ( Firewall Packet Engine)
>
>Handling these operations in Kernal Mode,
improves both performance and security. """""
>
>This means that Microsoft tends to increase the
performance of firewall service and security service in ISA to make it
faster as possible :-).
>
>Third: ISA 2006 firewall core depends on
Network Driver Interface Specification ( NDIS) and Microsoft Networking
Stack, that means that packet should pass the network interface, the
processor, RAM, harddisk, till it reach the network driver in windows (
Kernal Layer) which located over the hardware layer and assembly layer,
in the other hand, the packet is analyzed, interpreted and processed in
hardware layer in any hardware firewall.
>
>Fourth: The TCP/IP Stack in firewall core in
Kernal mode is controlled by windows , which refers to the previous
point of even the firewall engine is analyzing the packet in layer 3 and
4 before beginning processing, it will of course reach layer 5 of
windows which send it to the firewall engine in kernel mode.... (( Does
it make sense??? )) or it's better to analyze the packet as soon as it
reaches the network interface card, Isn't it??
>
>Fifth: In the purposed document
>
>" Policy Engine
>
>The policy engine communicates with all
components of the ISA server firewall core, both with the Kernal-mode
firewall engine and the user-mode firewall service, in addition the
Policy Engine communicates with both layers of application and web
filters""
>
>This means that there are a lot of channels
opened between Firewall core and other applications running in ISA,
which means " open ports", even this ports are opened in Kernal-mode,
but it's still opened port :-)
>
>Sixth: These are some comments gathering from
viewing just the first three papers of Microsoft Document, and I will
not telling the comments getting from the rest of this document, or the
mail will be too long :-) to read, but just I'd like to present this
comment written in the document as my last word about this document;
>
>" Note The firewall engine driver is the root
of the firewall dependency tree. Stopping the firewall engine driver (
by using net stop fweng /y at the command prompt) also stops the other
Firewall components, which opens the computer to all network traffic """
>
>Open to all network traffic
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, it means fully penetrated... how could it be that
one command can penetrate my network to all attacks?????? ... it does
not make sense at all, Does it??
>
>Seventh: you compares the ISA server 2006 (
which is last release) with PIX firewall, which is in market over than
20 years, and you didn't specify which version,, Microsoft has ISA 2000,
2004, 2006... But CISCO has 501,501E,506E,515,525, and the greatest PIX
535, which has unlimited number of users ad unlimited numbers of
concurrent VPN Connections ....
>
>Eighth : The OS of PIX is too small which can
be loaded in RAM and some portion of processor, It doesn't mean just
that it will be faster and faster than any software firewall, but I mean
that the packet inspector process will be done at the hardware level,
and in fact it happens in the assembly level... More than that, every
interface in PIX has it's own firewall policy, firewall engine, access
control,,, although you manage all interfaces by one screen, but in fact
this screen is collecting policies and access controls and firewall
services for all interfaces,,, as the OS of PIX divide itself to make
each interface has it's own control, so no need to contact with the core
OS or the kernel for any operations....
>
>Ninth: The adaptive security algorithm,
included in PIX, will never allow an incoming traffic to go inside,
except if there is a request for this traffic from inside, and it should
match a random signature it has been given to the requested traffic, or
if u make a policy on the outside interface to allow this traffic to
come in, and is called ADAPTIVE , it means that it will strengthen it
self upon the signature of the attack or the requested traffic and how
it will be filtered to insure that this " man in the middle" will not
gain access though the incoming traffic.
>
>Tenth: I was talking here about PIX 535 which
support all clustering features, as well as redundancy, as the
corresponding issue is between ISA and PIX, as a hardware and software
firewall, but If we go to market, we will find Watch Guard, Cyber Guard,
Alphafilter, CyberCom, D-Link,.....etc as well as we will see Symantec ,
Mcafee, ....etc,,, and for linux there are a lot of firewall software
like Netfilter
>
>Eleventh: you talked about ISA 2006, and you
give me a document coming from Microsoft itself, so what will mama said
about her child???????
>
>So if you want this, you can take a look of the
following links ::
>
> PIX 535
>
>http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/vpndevc/ps2030/products_data_she
et09186a008007d05d.html
>
>http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/vpndevc/ps2030/products_data_she
et09186a00801daa53.html
>
>ASA 5500
>
>http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps6120/products_data_sheet0900aecd8
02930c5.html
>
>http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps6120/products_data_sheet0900aecd8
0404916.html
>
>Note that ASA 5500 has been developed in order
to satisfy market need of application filtering and Active Directory
Integrated..
>
>But if we go to neutralized sites, we will find
that most of them are preferred PIX than ISA as a front door
>
>and I will not go far away,
>
>This link is in ISASERVER.org itself with your
handwriting about ISA 2000, which shown some issue
>
>http://www.isaserver.org/articles/Microsoft_Confirms_DoS_Vulnerability_
in_ISA_Server_2000.html
>
>right?
>
>And also :
>
>http://forums.isaserver.org/m_240057200/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#240057210
>
>and please see this
>
>http://www.critical-error.com/Article724.phtml
>
>http://www.techspot.com/vb/archive/index/t-10247.html
>
>http://www.checkpoint.com/defense/advisories/public/2006/printer/cpai_p
rint-03-Jun.html
>
>http://www.networksecurityarchive.org/html/NTBugtraq/2004-11/msg00009.h
tml
>
>
>
> Which means that you should be standby for any
articles and newsgroup to find out if there any discover Vulnerability,
and not just using windows update"
>
>Twelfth: There is a fact that any GUI operating
system should open ports to hardware to operate well, and this is refer
to fact that the first 1024 ports in windows you can't change or
reconfigure, and the other act that the most secure operating system
till now is UNIX , as it is a command prompt operating system and have
never been hacked except when it become LINUX, with a GUI.
>
>And even if it has been hacked, it records the
least amount of hacking processes than windows ofcourse.
>
>Finally : No Doubt that Microsoft is the
greatest marketing company in the world, as it depends on user need, and
nothing is more important to user more than the fancy of GUI , Graphical
User Interface,
>
>I think most of you agree with me that this
concept ; I mean GUI, is the main reason for Bill Jates treasure which
made up his riches, isn't it???
>
>Now, can you tell me
>
>- Why the great companies and the effective and
sensitive corporations ( Like BMW, Aramco, Nokia ) prefer to put a
hardware firewall instead of ISA server?? ( This is a fact, I see it
myself )
>
>
>
>- Why most of multinational banks ( Like CIB,
HSBC ) put more than three cascading hardware firewalls as it's front
door to internet??? ( This is a fact, I see it myself)
>
>
>
>- Why Microsoft itself didn't use any of it's
products, in it's server farms, instead they using UNIX for mail server
as an example??? ( you can check it your self by reading the arguments
shown to you in the address bar of internet explorer when you open your
hotmail inbox, and ask a good web programmer about it )
>
>
>
>- Why you don't recommend ISA server for DAN as
the cheapest way for a firewall system, as he can install it on a high
hardware qualified workstation, not should be a server, if you think
that ISA server can manage?????
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards
> Mohamed Saleh
>
> Senior Network Administrator
> College of Business Administration, CBA
> Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
> Tel: +966-02-6563199 ext 2521
> Cell: - +966-50-2953591
>
>
>!~` Yesterday is a History` ~!
>!~` Tomorrow is a Mystery` ~!
>!~` Today is a Gift` ~!
>!~` So we call it ...............` ~!
>!~` Present .......Simple` ~!
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>
> From: "D PIETRUSZKA USWRN INTERLINK INFRA"
<DPietruszka@xxxxxx>
> Reply-To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like
PIX
> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 07:16:07 -0400
> >http://www.ISAserver.org
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Probably you need to move your test to a more
realistic and complex
> >scenario.
> >
> >Regards
> >Diego R. Pietruszka
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
> >Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 6:28 PM
> >To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure like
PIX
> >
> >http://www.ISAserver.org
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >In my tests, I found them to be the same.
> >
> >I have one box running ISA 2000 that hasn't
been upgraded or service
> >packed for over two years, and it's been
running without stop for that
> >period of time. This is on a white box
install.
> >
> >There really isn't any difference in
stability from my perspective. If
> >you don't treat it like a workstation, don't
install non-ISA firewall
> >related services on it, it will run as long
as any PIX. And the good
> >thing is, it updates itself. Unlike the PIX,
which does need to be
> >updated like any other device, it doesn't do
it itself and most
> >"hardware" firewall admins just ignore it.
Not very smart or secure, but
> >I see that all the time in the field. After
all, it's hardware, it must
> >be secure [sic].
> >
> >NOT.
> >
> >Tom
> >
> >Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> >Site: www.isaserver.org
> >Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> >Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> >MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of D
> > > PIETRUSZKA USWRN INTERLINK INFRA
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 2:02 PM
> > > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure
like PIX
> > >
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > >
-------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Do you know the difference between
stability (what I mentioned on my
> > > email) and vulnerability?
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Diego R. Pietruszka
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 1:51 PM
> > > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure
like PIX
> > >
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > >
-------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > This is a completely specious argument,
with absolutely no basis in
> > > historical fact.
> > > When you can demonstrate that a
properly-configured ISA server has
> > > *EVER* been compromised due to a Windows
vulnerability, this
> > > claim *may*
> > > warrant consideration.
> > >
> > > Until then, it's nothing more or less than
simple punditious
> > > regurgitation.
> > >
> > >
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > Jim Harrison
> > > MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG
> > > http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/
> > > http://isatools.org
> > > Read the help / books / articles!
> > >
-------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On Behalf Of D PIETRUSZKA USWRN INTERLINK
INFRA
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 08:53
> > > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure
like PIX
> > >
> > > I completely agree that ISA is far more
secure than PIX, the
> > > only part I
> > > would concede to PIX (and that is why is
still on the market) is the
> > > stability and that is because don't run on
windows as ISA do.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Diego R. Pietruszka
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 11:05 AM
> > > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Cc: isapros-repost@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isalist] Re: Nothing is secure
like PIX
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi EM,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You are right. PIX is not very secure.
It's a router with
> > > some advanced
> > > ACLs and does neat routing tricks. But
when it comes to
> > > security, you're
> > > very very wrong that it's more secure.
Hardware doesn't fall from
> > > heaven, and all "hardware" is controlled
by software, and
> > > Syphco's core
> > > compentancy is not application protection
-- it's routing and
> > > switching.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree that there is no comparison
between PIX and ISA -- only a fool
> > > would be convinced that they get any real
security from a PIX, becuase
> > > they never took the time to learn about
network security and what the
> > > end game was. Check Point? That's another
story. Like the ISA
> > > firewall,
> > > Check Point is a so-called "software
firewall" (something to pothead
> > > "hardware" firewall guys often forget).
Check Point is better than ISA
> > > and you pay a LOT for that. However, a PIX
is a joke and I think the
> > > more thoughtful firewall admins out there
realize they've
> > > been hyMOtized
> > > by the Syphco sales reps.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PIX is a puppy dog, a little terrier, a
laptop or a pretty little
> > > Persian kitty cat -- the ISA firewall is
the brobdingnagian that
> > > provides your real security. The PIX is an
emotional blanket,
> > > a network
> > > Prozac, an expensive and illusory work for
security fiction.
> > > The PIX is
> > > the emperor with no clothes and is front
of my hacked Web sites and
> > > networks than any other firewall.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You mention that the PIX software is
"advanced" -- I'll give you the
> > > opposite perspective and proffer that it's
a trisomy 13 baby
> > > compared to
> > > the robust and healthy child that is the
ISA firewall. No one has ever
> > > broken into an ISA firewall and I consider
the ISA firewall
> > > mandatory. A
> > > PIX is nothing more than a historical
superstition, a carry over from
> > > the dawn days of the Internet. I never
never never never never never
> > > NEVER recommend putting a PIX in front or
behind or anywhere near the
> > > ISA firewall (a Check Point? Sometimes
that's useful for defense in
> > > depth -- Check Point, unlike PIX, is a
real network security
> > > solution).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The PIX with worthless and weak. Who is
it? What is it? What does it
> > > plan to do with it's life? (name that
tune!) On the other
> > > hand, the ISA
> > > firewall is built by people who understand
software, understand
> > > security, and is much more than a stupid
router with a
> > > "firewall" decal
> > > slapped on its bezel.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The ISA firewall's VPN server is MUCH MORE
SECURE than the simple PIX
> > > VPN. I've always wondered about the IQ of
folks who have thought
> > > otherwise. It's probably not an
intelligence issue, but just an
> > > ignorance issue, since they probably don't
understand the
> > > weaknesses of
> > > the PIX VPN solution or the strengths of
the ISA firewall's VPN
> > > solutions -- but that's par for the course
for folks who've been
> > > hypmotized by the Syphco sales reps, and
have had the implanted
> > > suggestions reinforced by the ABMer idiot
echo chamber.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Faster is not more secure.
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Faster is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Faster is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Faster is NOT NOT NOT more secure
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > > Hardware is NOT more secure
> > >
> > > Repeat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Remember, PIX has many security
vulnerabilies that you can
> > > check out at
> > > Secunia. Strangely enough, the ISA
firewall has NONE. And
> > > don't feed me
> > > that tired old drivel about "but it runs
on Windows". If you
> > > can show me
> > > how this is an issue after reading this
> > >
http://www.microsoft.com/isaserver/2006/prodinfo/Firewall_Corewp.mspx
> > > (which you won't do if you depend on your
Syphco sales rep for tech
> > > info).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Finally, be careful about throwing Syphco
PIX FUD around here. I've
> > > worked with the worthless PIX for a long
time and studied it
> > > in depth. I
> > > know it's cr*p on a cracker and it
survives because it's been
> > > grandfathered into the business. We're all
now suffering badly because
> > > the "network guys" who are clueless lusers
when it comes to understand
> > > application security, have hijacked
network security and companies get
> > > hacked far more often than they should
because these dolts are "port
> > > openers" and "port closers". The current
situation has the clowns
> > > running the circus.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In conclusion, there are several
neuroleptic medications I
> > > can recommend
> > > to anyone who seriously believes the
worthless PIX is more secure than
> > > an ISA firewall.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > IMNHO,
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > P.S. You're welcome to borrow any of the
creative phases I've included
> > > in this email. I only ask that you give
the props :)
> > >
> > > Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > > Site: www.isaserver.org
<http://www.isaserver.org/>
> > > Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > > Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> > > MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Egyptian Mind
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 9:01 AM
> > > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [isalist] Nothing is secure like
PIX
> > >
> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > >
-------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dears,
> > >
> > > No doubt that ISA 2000 or 2004 or even
2006, have increased the
> > > possibility of controling user access,,,
by allowing or denying the
> > > browsing or a tiny issue like downloding
gif and not
> > > downloading jpg as
> > > an example..
> > >
> > > This shows how much we can control user
action,,,
> > >
> > > Moreover, features like firewall services,
securing VPN
> > > connection, Nating, Publishing web sites,
etc.... are very helpfull
> > > features to make or Network Control is
much easier...
> > >
> > > But Nothing is secure like PIX...
> > >
> > > I don't mean that PIX is more secure than
ISA, or more capable
> > > of handling requests... I'm talking about
features and design and even
> > > the hardware specification.... There is no
comparison between ISA and
> > > PIX
> > >
> > > I'm here, in my network ; using two
failover PIX and two
> > > clustering ISA servers as well.. every
device has it's
> > > responsiblities...
> > >
> > > ISA is responisble for handling he request
from users and
> > > filtering it depends on customized rules,
and the great thing that ISA
> > > server is a domain member, so I can
customized the rules directly to
> > > specific user ,,,
> > >
> > > PIX is my Huge Body Guard which stand
infront of my Out Door, to
> > > filter any request come in or out my
door... YEs ..( in or out ) not
> > > just in .... and it is built on a very
advanced built-in
> > > program in the
> > > hardware it self, it is the adaptive
security algorithm,
> > > which has alot
> > > of tools to scan the coming packet,...
like if we said , the
> > > ultravoilet, infarraed, and eye scanner
and everything...
> > >
> > > It's a very adaptive algorithm and it's
very hard to
> > > penetrate,,, note that this alogorithm is
working on every packet goes
> > > or come , also depend on your own
cutomized rule you make on PIX,,,
> > >
> > > and instead that the windows how operates,
the adaptive security
> > > algorithm are running using the same
processing speed of it's
> > > processor,
> > > as it is already loaded in the PIX
processor and rams..
> > >
> > > How faster do you think it will be
!!!!!!?????
> > >
> > > it also has a complete secure process for
VPN connection and
> > > PATING, NATING , ... etc
> > >
> > > But PIX is not function as layer 7
appliance, so we use ISA for
> > > this purpose,,, to control the Application
layer and presentation
> > > layer... nothing more, nothing less,, and
also because PIX is not
> > > integrating with Active Directory..
> > >
> > > Finally, PIX is mandatory for security,
and ISA is mandatory for
> > > controling... but if we talked about the
ability to be hacked
> > > , I think
> > > you will agree with me that hacking a
program runing on
> > > Windows platform
> > > is much easier from penetrating program
runing on security dedicated
> > > appliance........ (( you can ask Bill
Jates about it ))
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Regards
> > >
> > > Mohamed Saleh
> > >
> > >
> > > Senior Network Administrator
> > > College of Business Administration, CBA
> > > Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
> > > Tel: +966-02-6563199 ext 2521
> > > Cell: - +966-50-2953591
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > !~` Yesterday is a History` ~!
> > >
> > > !~` Tomorrow is a Mystery` ~!
> > >
> > > !~` Today is a Gift` ~!
> > >
> > > !~` So we call it ...............` ~!
> > >
> > > !~` Present .......Simple` ~!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "Shane Mullins"
<tsmullins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Reply-To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Subject: [isalist] Re: Hardware....
(cringe) ...firewall
> > > ?
> > > Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:12:08 -0400
> > > >http://www.ISAserver.org
> > >
>-------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Good Deal,
> > > >
> > > > We have used ISA since Proxy 2.0. I
really liked the
> > > upgrade
> > > >from 2.0 to ISA 2000. But, I really
really like ISA
> > > 2004. Some of
> > > >the new features are great, esp in the
VPN areas,
> > > stateful packet
> > > >inspection. Also, I like the way ISA
integrates into
> > > AD, this is
> > > >huge if you are a Windows shop. Also,
there are some
> > > third party
> > > >snap ins that are very helpful.
> > > >
> > > >Shane
> > > >
> > > >PS I also really enjoyed reading your ISA
2004 book.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message ----- From:
"Thomas W Shinder"
> > > ><tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 10:33 AM
> > > >Subject: [isalist] Re: Hardware....
(cringe)
> > > ...firewall ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >http://www.ISAserver.org
> > >
>-------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >Hi Shane,
> > > >
> > > >No problems, that's how I took it! :)
> > > >
> > > >The PIX tax reminds of when in the middle
ages you
> > > could pay the
> > > >church
> > > >to absolve you of your sins. The
situation here is that
> > > they're
> > > >paying
> > > >Cisco for their sin of slothfullness.
Slothful in that
> > > they haven't
> > > >spent the time and effort to understand
real network
> > > security and
> > > >blindly pay a router and switch company
big money to
> > > protect
> > > >comporate
> > > >data (does anyone see the paradox in
this?)
> > > >
> > > >Thanks!
> > > >Tom
> > > >
> > > >Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > > >Site: www.isaserver.org
> > > >Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > > >Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> > > >MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>[mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of
> > > Shane Mullins
> > > >>Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 7:56 AM
> > > >>To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>Subject: [isalist] Re: Hardware....
(cringe)
> > > ...firewall ?
> > > >>
> > > >>http://www.ISAserver.org
> > >
> > >
>>-------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>
> > > >>Hey Thomas,
> > > >>
> > > >> I meant that to be a plug for ISA 2004.
I think ISA
> > > 2004
> > > >>is great. We
> > > >>have two ISA 2004 boxes that firewall
and provide
> > > internet
> > > >>access for 3,500
> > > >>machines. ISA 2004 has been rock solid
for us. ISA
> > > 2004
> > > >>provides advanced
> > > >>logging and caching functions that a
"hardware"
> > > firewall
> > > >>cannot provide. I
> > > >>have nothing against unix, but ISA 2004
is great.
> > > >> We could have paid 50k for a single pix
to provide
> > > >>firewall services.
> > > >>Then signed up for a 5k a year
maintenance agreement
> > > (so we could
> > > >>rcv
> > > >>updates). And all machines need updates,
even
> > > "hardware"
> > > >>firewalls have an
> > > >>OS. And ISA still does so much more.
> > > >>
> > > >>Shane
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > On 6/19/06, Thomas W Shinder
<tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > wrote:
> > > >> >> http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > >> >>
> > >
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Yes, it's that good. Go Daddy and
the ISP are
> > > clueless.
> > > >>Have you ever
> > > >> >> talked to your ISP's "tech guys" who
make these
> > > >>recommendations? Let's
> > > >> >> just say that the typical
interaction leaves you
> > > with the
> > > >>feeling that
> > > >> >> they're not on the top of the
firewall and
> > > networking food
> > > >>chains :)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> > > >> >> Site: www.isaserver.org
> > > >> >> Blog:
http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> > > >> >> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> > > >> >> MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> >> > From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >> >> >
[mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> > > Of Shane
> > > >>Mullins
> > > >> >> > Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 1:10
PM
> > > >> >> > To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >> >> > Subject: [isalist] Re:
Hardware.... (cringe)
> > > ...firewall ?
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > >> >> >
> > >
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > ISA 2K4 is really good? There is
an eval
> > > version. Maybe he
> > > >> >> > would let you
> > > >> >> > try that.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Shane
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> >> > From: "G.Waleed Kavalec"
<kavalec@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > >> >> > To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >> >> > Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 1:08
PM
> > > >> >> > Subject: [isalist] Hardware....
(cringe)
> > > ...firewall ?
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > > >> >> > >
> > >
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >> > > My boss has been talking to our
ISP and also
> > > to some folks
> > > >> >> > at GoDaddy.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > Both use - and recommend -
hardware firewall
> > > solutions.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > What do I tell him? He is poised
to make one
> > > of those
> > > >>classic PHB
> > > >> >> > > decisions.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > (currently on ISA 2K)
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > --
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > G. Waleed Kavalec
> > > >> >> > > -------------------------
> > > >> >> > > Why are we all in this
handbasket
> > > >> >> > > and where is it going so fast?
> > > >> >> > >
> > >
------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >> > > List Archives:
> > > //www.freelists.org/archives/isalist/
> > > >> >> > ISA Server
> > > >> >> > > Newsletter:
> > >
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> > > >> >> > ISA Server
> > > >> >> > > Articles and Tutorials:
> > > >> >> >
http://www.isaserver.org/articles_tutorials/ ISA
> > > >> >> > > Server Blogs:
> > > >> >> > > http://blogs.isaserver.org/
> > > >> >> >
> > >
------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >> > > Visit TechGenix.com for more
information about
> > > our other
> > > >>sites:
> > > >> >> > > http://www.techgenix.com
> > > >> >> >
> > >
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> > >
------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >> >> > ISA Server Newsletter:
> > >
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> > > >> >> > ISA Server Articles and Tutorials:
> > > >> >> >
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> > > >> >> > ISA Server Blogs:
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> > > >> >> >
> > >
------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >> >> ISA Server Articles and Tutorials:
> > > >> >>
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> > > >> >>
> > >
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> > > >> >
> > > >> > -- >
> > > >> > G. Waleed Kavalec
> > > >> > -------------------------
> > > >> > Why are we all in this handbasket
> > > >> > and where is it going so fast?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
http://www.kavalec.com/thisisislam.swf
> > > >> >
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><< winmail.dat >>
engage Mutual Assurance is a trading name of Homeowners
Friendly Society Limited (HFSL), Registered and Incorporated under the
Friendly Societies Act 1992, Reg. No. 964F, and its wholly owned
subsidiary engage Mutual Funds Limited (eMFL), Reg. No. 3224780, HFSL
and eMFL are both authorised and regulated by the Financial Services
Authority (FSA). HFSL's FSA Register no. is 110072, eMFL's FSA Register
no. is 181487. You can check this on the FSA's Register by visiting the
FSA's website http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register or by contacting the FSA on
0845 606 1234
engage Mutual Investment Funds ICVC is an investment
company with variable capital. Registered in England No. IC00044.
engage Mutual Administration Limited Reg. No. 4301736,
engage Mutual Services Limited Reg. No. 3088162 and Homeowners
Membership Services Limited Reg. No. 3091667 are non-regulated limited
companies.
United Kingdom Civil Service Benefit Society (UKCSBS)
and United Kingdom Armed Forces Benefit Society (UKAFBS) are trading
styles of Homeowners Friendly Society Limited
All registered at Hornbeam Park Avenue, Harrogate. HG2
8XE. Tel: 01423 855000 Web: http://www.engagemutual.com
<http://www.engagemutual.com/> This e-mail is intended only for the
person named as recipient. The contents are confidential. If you are not
the intended recipient of this e-mail, please notify us as soon as
possible and delete it. If you are not the intended recipient of the
e-mail, any use by you is prohibited.
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