[isalist] Re: FW: Re[2]: Bypassing ISA Server 2004 with IPv6
- From: "Thomas W Shinder" <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 21:08:59 -0500
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
It takes a big man to admit that :)
Actually, I am no grammarian -- its only when politics infect grammar
that I pay attention. You're still more skilled at the mechanics of the
language as a whole :)
Tom
Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
Site: www.isaserver.org
Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor
> (Hammer of God)
> Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 7:57 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Timothy Mullen; Thomas W Shinder
> Subject: [isalist] Re: FW: Re[2]: Bypassing ISA Server 2004 with IPv6
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Ah- I more clearly see your point regarding "agreement in
> numbers." The
> "true" object is "administrator" used in singularity; however I used a
> reflexive of "themselves" in plurality. That is indeed
> incorrect. And though
> I contend that non-gender specificity should be observed in general
> reference, I agree that object/pronoun agreement should come
> "first," even
> if modern-usage dictates gender etiquette.
>
> I should have said "saving ignorant administrators from themselves."
>
> You win.
>
> t
>
>
> On 4/16/06 5:25 PM, "Thor (Hammer of God)"
> <thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to
> all:
>
> > http://www.ISAserver.org
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Actually, it *is* reflexive. "Himself, herself, themselves" are all
> > reflexive pronouns. When the object of the sentence is not
> a pronoun, i.e.
> > "the ignorant administrator" you can't directly match the
> object with a
> > reflexive pronoun, hence my use of "themselves."
> Pedantically, one cannot
> > say "protecting the ignorant administrator from himself" nor can you
> > (correctly) say "from herself," as all reflexive pronouns
> must match the
> > object pronoun if it exists. In the case of "the" being
> substituted as a
> > non-gender reference, "themselves" was the best choice of
> reflexive pronoun
> > for that object. The ubiquitous use of "the" obviates the
> use of any other
> > gender specific pronoun, regardless of "number agreement."
> In any other
> > case, I would acquiesce to your point in regard to grammar,
> but not here.
> >
> > t
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/16/06 5:05 PM, "Thomas W Shinder"
> <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to
> > all:
> >
> >> http://www.ISAserver.org
> >> -------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> It's not a reflexive thing, it's an agreement in number thing.
> >>
> >> Sent via ISA firewall protected Exchange 2003 Windows Mobile
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: "Thor (Hammer of God)"<thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: 4/16/06 4:58:27 PM
> >> To: "isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx"<isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Subject: [isalist] Re: FW: Re[2]: Bypassing ISA Server
> 2004 with IPv6
> >>
> >> http://www.ISAserver.org
> >> -------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> It should be "installs *and* configures," and you should
> check the spacing
> >> on the post... Looks like some spaces were removed.
> >>
> >> Thanks for the post, though. Refexive pronouns and all ;)
> >>
> >> T
> >>
> >>
> >> On 4/16/06 6:50 AM, "Thomas W Shinder"
> <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to
> >> all:
> >>
> >>> http://www.ISAserver.org
> >>> -------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Here you go:
> >>>
> >>>
> http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/2006/04/16/isa-firewalls-and-ipv6/
> >>>
> >>> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
> >>> Site: www.isaserver.org
> >>> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
> >>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
> >>> MVP -- ISA Firewalls
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor
> >>>> (Hammer of God)
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 10:40 PM
> >>>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: [isalist] FW: Re[2]: Bypassing ISA Server 2004 with IPv6
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Just to keep the ISA Lists in the mix when it comes to this
> >>>> "IPv6 Bypassing
> >>>> ISA" thing...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------ Forwarded Message
> >>>> From: "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 20:28:36 -0700
> >>>> To: Bugtraq <bugtraq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Conversation: Re[2]: Bypassing ISA Server 2004 with IPv6
> >>>> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Bypassing ISA Server 2004 with IPv6
> >>>>
> >>>> ISA Server is an application that is installed on top of the
> >>>> base OS. Are
> >>>> you suggesting that the application should actually
> prevent the local
> >>>> administrator of the host machine from installing and
> configuring what
> >>>> protocols are bound to what adapters?
> >>>>
> >>>> To me, *that* is the borderline. There is no such thing as
> >>>> "for what ever
> >>>> reason ipv6 in enabled on ISA" when it comes to administering
> >>>> an enterprise
> >>>> firewall product. If an administrator installs configures
> >>>> ipv6 on the OS of
> >>>> the firewall, and then binds ipv6 to a protected network
> >>>> segment, then they
> >>>> absolutely, positively, without-a-doubt get exactly what
> they deserve.
> >>>> Anyone who does that without understanding what they are
> >>>> doing are simply
> >>>> taking jobs away from competent, knowledgeable administrators.
> >>>>
> >>>> The mindset of "protecting the ignorant administrator from
> >>>> themselves" in
> >>>> this business has got to end. Positioning this as if there
> >>>> is some flaw in
> >>>> ISA because the application does not prohibit a local
> >>>> administrator from
> >>>> binding unsupported protocols to interfaces is simply
> >>>> ludicrous. In fact, it
> >>>> is the opposite that is true: If I as an administrator of a
> >>>> machine want to
> >>>> bind a protocol to an adapter for some reason (as in a
> >>>> separate, private
> >>>> segment for use in a particular environment) then I should,
> >>>> indeed MUST, be
> >>>> able to do it. And I will be responsible for the
> >>>> implications of doing so.
> >>>>
> >>>> There was an earlier thread today where a simple list of
> >>>> hostnames being
> >>>> filtered from the Win32 HOSTS file was positioned as
> >>>> "deliberate sabotage"
> >>>> of our machines by Microsoft; a case of "It's my computer-
> >>>> keep your hands
> >>>> off." Yet here, the integrity of a product is being
> >>>> challenged because the
> >>>> application does not prevent an administrator from installing
> >>>> and binding
> >>>> protocols at the OS-level in cases where the application is
> >>>> not designed to
> >>>> filter those protocols? That is a double-standard at its best.
> >>>>
> >>>> t
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 4/10/06 12:34 PM, <You can get the OP from Bugtraq>
> spoketh to all:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for clearing that. But: If ISA is not able to
> >>>> filter IPv6 so
> >>>>> why can it be bound to an interface anyway? Just to
> route things
> >>>>> through? Blindly through a firewall?
> >>>>> Another posting talks about limited filtering
> capabilities. Roman
> >>>>> wrote, icmp went through. So where is the borderline? It
> >>>> still seems
> >>>>> to me that in the moment for what ever reason ipv6 is
> >>>> enabled on ISA
> >>>>> the network it should secure is exposed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
> >>>>
> >>>>
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