Walter, What I am trying to stay away from are things like this: "The (Pins ... ) in the .ibsx file are really Pads." Let's do things the right way and call things by their real name... What I have in mind is this: The IBIS file starts with the [Component] keyword. What makes up a component, i.e. what does it consist of? Well, it has pins (or balls), package, at least one die (could be more). Then on the die we have pads (bumps) and we might have on-die interconnects between the pads and buffer terminals. Currently, IBIS starts out correctly with the [Pin] and package keywords in the [Component] but we forgot to declare and name (instantiate) the die, and that's where things are starting to fall apart. I would like to fix that but listing out all the elements that make up a component, including the die and its on-die interconnects, and do all this using the correct hierarchy and terminology. Thanks, Arpad ================================================================== From: Walter Katz [mailto:wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 6:58 AM To: Muranyi, Arpad; 'IBIS-ATM' Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Lets go all the way! Arpad, Note that in this IBISx approach, the Model is not associated in the package .emd file. The package .emd file references a die .ibsx file. The (Pins ... ) in the .ibsx file are really Pads. These Pins (Pads) do reference the buffer model name. I do think that this instantiate [Models] the right way by associating [Models] with the die pads instead of the package pins. Are you suggesting that in the .ibsx file we have a list of Pins (pads), and a separate list of [Models]? Can you describe any existing silicon that would require this? Walter From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]<mailto:[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]> On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 12:07 AM To: IBIS-ATM Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Lets go all the way! Walter, I think you may have misunderstood my comment last Friday, because I don't remember saying what you write below. I don't even see myself saying it, because I don't think there is really a "problem that legacy IBIS combines both package and die models in .ibs files", because the most accurate package modeling syntax that is available in IBIS currently allows the [Define Package Model] keyword (and its content) to be either in the .ibs or the (separate) .pkg file. Either way, I am really not very concerned about having things in one or multiple files. My comment last Friday was about the mechanism by which the IBIS specification defines and instantiates [Model]s using the [Pin] keyword. This was OK in the days when the number of pins were the same as pads and the package had a one-to-one pin to pad path. But now that we are talking about arbitrary pin and pad relations, and now that we are talking about adding to this an also arbitrary pad to buffer terminal on-die interconnect modeling capability, we can no longer rely on defining and instantiating [Model]s using the pin names. I made the suggestion on Friday, that if we "overhaul" IBIS with significant changes as you suggested in your presentation, we should also consider this and instantiate [Model]s the right way. Doing this the right way might make the rest of the package and on-die interconnect syntax cleaner. Thanks, Arpad ================================================================ From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]<mailto:[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]> On Behalf Of Walter Katz Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 2:03 PM To: IBIS-ATM Subject: [ibis-macro] Lets go all the way! All, In the Friday Open Forum meeting Arpad raised a question that reflects the problem that legacy IBIS combines both package and die models in .ibs files. I believe the answer to this question is to split up "components" into a package EMD file and a die IBISx file. The enclosed presentation illustrates this using the example legacy IBIS file in my last presentation. Walter Walter Katz wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx> Phone 303.449-2308 Mobile 303.335-6156