[ibis-macro] Re: Analog Buffer Modeling - BIRD 144
- From: "Todd Westerhoff" <twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'IBIS-ATM'" <ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 09:02:07 -0500 (EST)
Feras,
As far as I can tell, BIRD 144 IS a fixed topology approach - the way the
Touchstone file is connected to the rest of the circuit (at the black
box's external ports) is pre-defined as part of the [External Circuit]
processing. There's nothing wrong with that, by the way - if the external
connectivity wasn't predefined (=fixed), the simulator wouldn't know what
to do with it.
You're correct that putting the pointer to the Touchstone file in the .ibs
file is more consistent with the rest of the standard and will support non
IBIS-AMI models. Walter and I originally proposed Tstonefile as an .ibs
keyword in 2009; we moved it to the .ami file in mid 2009, thinking it
would limit the scope of the discussion to AMI and let the process move
faster. Well, we tried.
I think you should move User Defined Corners into a separate BIRD. You're
proposing them only for Touchstone files and ignoring everything else in
the spec. That's exactly the strategy you're arguing against - coming up
with something that only works in one case but not in others. If you're
going to extend IBIS beyond three corners, move it into a separate BIRD
and do it right (which means - address all the parts of the spec that are
currently limited to 3 corners).
Todd.
--
Todd Westerhoff
VP, Software Products
SiSoft
6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250
Maynard, MA 01754
(978) 461-0449 x24
twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx
<http://www.sisoft.com/> www.sisoft.com
"It doesn't matter what you've heard
Impossible is not a word
It's just a reason
For someone not to try"
-Kutless
From: Feras Al-Hawari [mailto:feras@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 4:57 AM
To: twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx; 'IBIS-ATM'
Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Analog Buffer Modeling - BIRD 144
Todd,
Several other points related to BIRD 144 in comparison to Walter's
proposal:
- Unlike Walter's approach, our approach is NOT a canned model
approach as the Touchstone models are very general and widely spread
(i.e., a BLACKBOX) that can be used to model passive interconnect and LTI
I/O models
- Unlike Walter's approach, we add the Touchstone S-parameter
model in the right IBIS block i.e., the External Model section, which is
the container for analog I/O models
- Unlike Walter's approach, our method will work with/without AMI
models
- Our approach can also be used in an External Circuit to model
ODT, RDL, packages, etc
- Our proposal complements the general IBIS-ISS approach, but in
this case we would like to make using the S-parameter black boxes easier
i.e., without the need to wrap it in a SPICE subckt
Best regards,
Feras Al-Hawari
Cadence design Systems
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Todd Westerhoff
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 3:15 PM
To: 'IBIS-ATM'
Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Analog Buffer Modeling - A Summary
Ambrish,
I believe your claim is indefensible. None of us know what's going to
happen 5 years from now, so let's not assume that we can architect for
future needs, even if we want to. While it's certainly true that the
Touchstone file (BIRD 144 included) and Walter's Thevenin circuit are
fixed-topology approaches, the issue of model complexity, cost and
reliability is consistently getting overlooked in this thread.
The "general approach is better" argument neglects the fact that the model
will have more moving parts (subcircuit netlist(s), wrapper(s), control
file(s), etc.) that have to be developed, validated and deployed together
for the model to do what it's supposed to do. There are real costs
associated with increased model complexity: additional model developer
time, users ensuring that they have all the model pieces plugged into the
simulator correctly, EDA vendors supporting additional syntax, and so on.
In a perfect world, we could make models arbitrarily complex and
everything would just be plug and play. It's a computer, right? Who
cares how hard the computer has to work to pull the pieces together? In
my day to day experience, we're a long way from there. I see plenty of
model portability issues with just the .ibs, .ami and .dll files we have
now.
Don't get me wrong - I don't have a problem with a general purpose
subcircuit syntax. What I do have a problem with, is pitching it as a
panacea without considering the additional workload it places on models
developers and end users. This isn't a black or white thing - it's a
tradeoff thing, which needs consideration and balance.
My $0.02.
Todd.
--
Todd Westerhoff
VP, Software Products
SiSoft
6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250
Maynard, MA 01754
(978) 461-0449 x24
twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx
www.sisoft.com <http://www.sisoft.com/>
"It doesn't matter what you've heard
Impossible is not a word
It's just a reason
For someone not to try"
-Kutless
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ambrish Varma
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 1:10 PM
To: IBIS-ATM
Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Analog Buffer Modeling - A Summary
Walter,
I am very intrigued by questions 5 and 6. The answers to both the
questions can be a 'No' today but the real question back to you is
A) Can you say for sure that 1, 2, 5 years down the road, we will not need
new reserved models to describe the new analog LTI circuit of the times?
I suspect the answer to that question would be a 'No' as well. Hence the
next question:
B) Is it better to propose language that works today, and work 1, 2, 5
years from now as well, or is it better to take short cuts today, and
worry about the future when we come to it?
We are trying to write an Industry Standard that should encompass short
term and long term goals and not merely writing specifications to satisfy
existing norms.
It seems to me more and more that AMI_Thevenin_Tx, or AMI_Thevenin_Rx
should be examples in the Standard, rather than the Standard itself. As
for AMI_Tstonefile_Tx, AMI_Tstonefile_Rx, these keywords are AMI centric
and can very well be replaced by a general solution as proposed in other
BIRDs.
Thanks and Regards,
Ambrish.
Ambrish Varma | Member of Consulting Staff
P: 978.262.6431 <http://www.cadence.com> www.cadence.com
_____
From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Walter Katz
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 12:36 PM
To: IBIS-ATM
Subject: [ibis-macro] Analog Buffer Modeling - A Summary
All,
I will attend next Tuesday's meeting and will be prepared to discuss the
following. I will also be prepared to make a presentation to the IBIS
Summit on any of the following that you do not agree with:
1. LTI vs Non-LTI Modeling
a. I will propose that we table any IBIS-ATM discussion until
someone can present to IBIS a Channel that:
i. Channel
1. A real IC Vendor SerDes Tx and Rx buffer
2. A real Tx and Rx Package
3. A real interconnect
ii. When analyzing the Channel using
1. Non-LTI Vendor Models
2. An LTI approximation of the Models
iii. Give results that are different enough to cause the design
engineer to make substantively different design decisions.
2. Can anyone provide an IBIS SerDes Tx and Rx Buffer that has a
constant impedance over the operating range of the Buffer that cannot be
accurately represented by either the proposed AMI_Thevenin_Tx and
AMI_Thevenin_Rx model? Please note the following subtle limitation of BIRD
116 described in 3.
3. [External Model]/Language ISS assumes that the Analog Model LTI.
Therefore any Non-LTI affects that are caused by time variation that is
captured in the IBIS Rising and Falling Waveforms. The only way to handle
this is to change the D_to_A to contain a PWL.
4. Can anyone provide an ISS subckt that represents a Tx or Rx ISS
SerDes buffer model that cannot be converted to an accurate Touchstone
file?
5. Can anyone point to an industry standard SerDes specification
(e.g. PCIeG3, PCIeG4, IEEE 802.3 bj, ap, kr) that does not specify
constrains on the analog behavior that cannot be represented by the
proposed AMI_Thevenin_Tx and AMI_Thevenin_Rx model?
6. Does anyone disagree that any Tx or Rx analog LTI model can be
represented by one of the proposed models ( AMI_Tstonefile_Tx,
AMI_Tstonefile_Rx, AMI_Thevenin_Tx, or AMI_Thevenin_Rx model?
Walter
Walter Katz
wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx
Phone 303.449-2308
Mobile 720.333-1107
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