Hi Stippi, Stephan Assmus wrote:
Hi, On 2010-04-09 at 21:57:49 [+0200], Jorge G. Mare <koki@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:Nickos V wrote:I am sorry, but you got it upside down. I was the one insulted! It is Matt Madia who insulted me.Yes, Matt insulted you and it was uncalled for. Everyone on this list saw it. No need to bring it up over & over. Let it go.There are two very distinct parts to this thread, one before Matt's "assholes can ruin your project" hit and run, and another that took life after (and as a result of) it.just a quick reply to this thread for the record. I agree that Matt's mail was uncalled for and I can see why you were personally offended by it. Don't know about insulted, but don't want to embark in a discussion about that.I just wanted to get it off my chest that I find your mail about how there is this supposed "in-group" and "out-group" and "powerful" and "powerless" individuals in the community much more hurtful to the project, especially at this timing where new people are introduced into our community with GSoC. How you operate with these terms and how you picture this community is very disappointing. I don't agree with the "getting away with" part either. For example, I voice my opinion right now (I was traveling to BeGeistert before I even got a chance to read and reply to this) and am expressing that I believe Matt's mail was unjustified. We have never banned anyone from this list, so everyone has gotten away in the same way up to now. People are free to take sides or not and to voice their opinion or not. The rest, about there being and in-group and out-group is completely your construct.
The timing is unfortunate, but this is true. There is a clear pattern in Haiku where if the offender of any given incident is close to the core of project, then the incident is given a blind eye. In fact, there have been instances of unjustified rudeness or even outright insults (and I mean in the form of explicit dirty language cursing) that not only were never condemned, but sometimes even justified and cheered, both explicitly and implicitly.
In contrast, sometimes well-intended input from non-core members or newcomers to the Haiku circles can lead to exaggerated knee-jerk reactions from some core members and the surrounding fanbois, regardless of whether that input may be valid or not.
In summary, the "in-group" has carte blanche to say whatever they want, be rude, use foul language and even make implicit or explicit personal insults, but the "out-group" is put in a position where expressing an opinion may lead to being chastised or even censored (as in being asked to shut up).
I know this behavior is a form comradeship, and it is understandable to a certain extent. But unfortunately between the people who justify and cheer the rudeness and the silent enablers, they have created an atmosphere of permissiveness that will allow this sort of unfortunate incidents to happen over and over again.
This was not always like this; I remember in the early days an incident where someone used foul language with one of the core developers, and he was met with a clear message from the project leaders that this kind of behaviour was not allowed. It was clear-cut, without any hesitations. That's what I would want for Haiku: common good manners applied to everyone equally, not the present status quo where people apply right or wrong based on their associations, emotions or to carry out their personal bendettas against the people that they dislike.
That's it from me, I won't contribute any more to this thread, but with the new GSoC students having to read all this, I felt like I wanted to say at least this much to try to ballance some of what you pictured.
Just want to close by saying that nothing of what I say here is directed at you personally. I am looking at the project as a whole and making my critique because I would like Haiku to become a better place to be. I hope you understand.
Regards, -- Jorge/aka Koki Website: http://haikuzone.net RSS: http://haikuzone.net/rss.xml
