[haiku-development] Re: Haiku, Inc. in Contempt of Its Community

  • From: Matthias Lindner <two4god@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "haiku-development@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <haiku-development@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 16:45:13 +0100

Hi Jim Saxton

if you followed the haiku website closely there where a lot information
before it was implemented,

the first discussions on the  mailing list even dates back to 2001:
https://www.freelists.org/post/haiku/Package-Management-System
it always showed up from time to time at the malinglist, on irc and so on.
https://www.freelists.org/post/haiku/Core-libraries-package-management

It was also asked for  public discussion  in an public blogpost on the
website (see the last sentense).
https://www.haiku-os.org/blog/zooey/2011-01-03_package_management_haiku

and a as you can see from this document it was widly discussed:
https://dev.haiku-os.org/wiki/PackageManagement/OldIdeas


To Weyoun x+1

Beside the that you need to ged used as a developer it is actually good for
the end user.
I also first had my strugle.. but i got the idea behind it and its much
much better than e.g. the folder hell in linux where you dont know
wich developer will put there binary where... (also there are some rules
but not all stick to them - as you can see on your request.)
For the enduser this means more headache because of a clear folderstructure.

I personly  love the update function (no need to install the new new
nightly again and again with installer.
You even have a roll back function and there are much more posibilitys.

As this is as you promted - haiku is  a community project you can make
design choices on your own. You can fork haiku and start to develop your
own  haiku without packagemenagement - i guess if you ask nicely there are
even person who could help you with that.

As ist seem you have already  a idea how a haiku wihtout packagemanagement
should work. So it should be no probleme for you to "port back" all the
changes made since the packagemanagement was introuduced, git gives you
some powerfull tools for this. :-)

Again i also would love to see statistiks about what software was brocken
and also to see how importend this software was / is wich is broken.

Some last thing to think about this the "arrogant developers". They are
investing a lot there free time for haiku. And they are using it mostly as
a main os.

I just assuming you dont invest so much time and you dont use it as your
main os? Because else you could give us a detailed list about wich apps are
brocken, and wich should be fixed. And also you simply just get really fast
used to this packagemangement because it works like a charm.

Greetings
Paradoxon aka Matthias LIndner

2015-02-13 23:53 GMT+01:00 Jim Saxton <black.belt.jimmy@xxxxxxxxx>:

> On 2/9/15, Weyoun Five <weyounfive@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On October 14, 2013, "bbjimmy" opened a bug report, located here:
> >
> > https://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/10101
> >
> > In that report, he stated the following facts:
> >
> > "60 to 80 percent of the third party software for Haiku has been broken
> > by changes to the file system. The user guide describes the proper use
> > of the /boot/common and /boot/home/config directory trees. These are now
> >  broken. Software that expects to add a binary or lib in either tree
> > cannot. Scripting that expects binarys in /boot/home/config/bin or
> > /boot/common/bin cannot find the binary in the
> > /boot/home/config/non-packaged/bin directory."
> >
> > "I don't like to have to go back and fix stuff that wasn't broken."
> >
> > The bug reporter didn't ask for much, and it could have been resolved in
> a
> > matter of minutes. All he asked for was the creation of a directory and
> read
> > access to a few others.
> >
> > It is unclear what motivated five people to respond to the bug report.
> > Clearly, they had no intention of helping get the issue resolved.
> Instead,
> > they arrogantly asserted a disingenuous argument: that use of hard coded
> > paths is "broken by design."
> >
> > Yet, when one looks at the inter workings of packages built by
> Haikuporter,
> > one can clearly see that it indeed uses hard coded paths:
> >
> > readelf -d msgen
> >
> > Dynamic section at offset 0x2bb0 contains 23 entries:
> >   Tag        Type                         Name/Value
> >  0x00000001 (NEEDED)                     Shared library:
> > [libgettextsrc-0.19.2.so]
> >  0x00000001 (NEEDED)                     Shared library:
> > [libgettextlib-0.19.2.so]
> >  0x00000001 (NEEDED)                     Shared library:
> [libncurses.so.5]
> >  0x00000001 (NEEDED)                     Shared library: [libintl.so.8]
> >  0x00000001 (NEEDED)                     Shared library: [libiconv.so.2]
> >  0x00000001 (NEEDED)                     Shared library: [libroot.so]
> >  0x0000000f (RPATH)                      Library rpath:
> >
> [/packages/gettext-0.19.2-1/.self/lib:/packages/ncurses-5.9-10/.self/develop/lib:/packages/libiconv-1.13.1-6/.self/develop/lib]
> >
> > Haikuporter's incororation into Haiku was the justification for the
> > destruction of numerous end user applications housed at Haikuware.  They
> > were all created by unpaid volunteers under the most difficult of
> > conditions, destroyed by an arrogant Romanesque thumbs down:
> >
> > "Package management is the future of Haiku software distribution; if
> > Haikuware won't embrace that, it will go away."
>
>
> It's a little late to be complaining about this. Yes, the devs made
> bad choices when changing the system. They did that by not discussing
> it "in public", on the main website in plain view of the users and
> application devs. They chose to make those changes based on limited
> input from this list and the irc channel, places most users and app
> devs do not frequent.
>
> By harping on this, you are inviting the devs to become even more
> isolated by moderating this list. this is not good for abybody.
>
> As it is, with some work, not work that I wanted to be engaged in, yab
> and most other programs can work with the new arrangement. This is how
> it is, and by now, there is no plan of ghanging it back. In fact,
> doing so would now break things that we have all worked hare to make
> work.
>
> The 60 to 80 percent figure came out of my butt. It was my estimate of
> the problem based on my experiance, not any servey or other reasonable
> measure.
>
> Give it a rest, the devs are not in contempt of the community, they
> are just guilty of not communicating very well, as most of us are.
>
>
> --
> bbjimmy
> http://www.coquillemartialarts.com
> http://www.fatelk.com
>
>

Other related posts:

  1. Home
  2. haiku-development
  3. Archive
  4. 02-2015