[guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
- From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:27:26 -0500
Progress is good, not all change is good especially when the change impacts
negatively on those who are the target of what is changing. For instance,
if microsoft is putting out something and says it is accessible but it cost
250 dollars to get it and you already have something that works well but
it's not the latest and greatest and in order to run some of the new stuff
that say is free, you have to spend this 250 dollars that you don't have nad
can't get, this is not good change. If someone says they have a free course
for you but you have to spend several hundred dollars to get a computer and
an nternet connection to take advantage of it and you can't afford the
outlay, it may as well not be available. So, when we impose change, an
impact assessment needs to be part of the guiding force of the change so
that the system can be properly developped. there is all kinds of research
and development and I have seen situations where r&d worked quite well
together because development looked at research and helped shape the
research and vise versa. Research needs to be done not only on new ways to
do things, but on the cost of ownership and potential impacts of those new
things.
Johnnie Apple Seed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 5:14 PM
Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
Hi Dave --
Well I wasn't pointing to you personally, and I am glad you have a wide
range of technology and gadgets and experience with it, which is helpful in
your work I'm sure.
I guess I'm not as pessimistic about technological advancements.
I think we as blind persons needing special access expect too much of
technology -- it is perfectly fine for research to be done and new products
to be turned out that appeal to sighted persons and perhas initially or even
permanently not accessible, if only in a few features. That is the nature
of research vs development.
I had a unique position at work as I was in an organization that was stuck
kind of between research and development, and there was a constant battle or
conflict between research, wanting to put new stuff into their prototypes
before the product went out as if it didn't go in then, it might never be
accepted later -- versus on the other hadd, the customer support people who
argued that there were people who had invested time and energy and money
doing development on top of the new product and didn't want such rapid
change. Finally at one point, the 2 organizations split, but since research
got its funding from development and the products sold by the company, they
went public and the battle between the new and the old got out of hand and
finally the development group was cancelled and a new development team was
created that was much more closely tied to research. But such it goes. It
was very painful, and I got caught up in the middle and even got emotional
about it a few times, but looking back, progress is good, and I agreed that
research shouldn't be frozen because it leaves some users lagging to keep
up, at least for a while, and the accessibility features, while they should
be addressed up front during research and not wait until later, at least
provide the researchers and developers with continued employment, etc etc.
It was a painful experience working for AT&T during the long process of
divestature and technological and economic change, but really, change is
good and is (as someone once said) the only thing that is unchanging <smile>
and therefore people should try as best they can to keep abreast with it,
and if they can't at least don't complain that it is a bad thing, only that
the accessibility should be addressed earlier than it apparently is.
So that's my soapbox.
I had to learn the hard way, but I do believe in "progress" -- well
actually, there was another quote that was popular when I was working and
all the company reorgs were taking place: "change gives the illusion of
progress..."
Now that sounds like it contradicts what I have just been saying, but there
are some changes that are valuable -- even if not always to a blind
person -- and we need to keep abreast of things so we can differentiate and
remain vocal about what is really needed and not cut down stuff that is a
temporary barrier.
Now as for low-income persons and institutions and schools not having the
resources to upgrade, I I can understand that is a problem and don't have an
answer. I think the ADA does help to solve some of at, but not all, and
even the government doesn't have unlimited funds.
But in the case of schools, companies have always donated equipment to
schools to boost their business, not just via public relations, but also to
get people experienced using their stuff, so now that the law is in favor of
accessibility, they will be more anxious to work on it up front. (But maybe
I'm dreaming...;)
Take care!
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:40 PM
Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
> I'm one of those fortunate people who happen to have access to three
> computers. They range from an 6 year old pc to a right new 2.4ghz pc the
> 6
> year old is a pII 350mhz system running xp pro sp2 and has 128mb ram so if
> they tell you it can't be done, send 'em to me. The inbetweens are a
> toshiba satelite 2400s201 with 384mb ram running at 1.6ghz I believe a
> pii.
> and a mac powerbook g4 which I dearly love even though it is only running
> at
> 667mhz it still out poerforms my toshiba 1.6.
>
> I fight on behalf of underfunded people and institutions who battle every
> day just to keep what they have had for the past several years working
> much
> less affording to upgrade if you want to call it that them. Yeah, the
> further we go the more "hooks" there and it kind of makes me wonder why we
> are loosing the accessibility fight, but that is another story entirely I
> guess but take the example of microsoft windows media player 10. 9 was
> perfectly find and then they had to come out with 10 while not
> inaccessible
> is a step down from what 9 was. Every time a new version of office comes
> out, it has to be tweeked for before we can use it and every time a new os
> comes out, we need a new screen reader to cope with it and I hope that it
> will be as easy with the next new os as it was with the last which was
> still
> quite a bear. Access? Let's see, can I read a document in print preview
> yet? What if I decide I want that pretty blue theme on my desktop woops,
> there goes my screen reader dead in the watter. What about changing the
> font size so I can see it better or the contrast? Sorry, no screen
> reader.
> I can point out a lot about the os that we don't have access to and
> haven't
> had for a long time and yet, we are making strides?
>
> Johnnie Apple Seed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "guispeak" <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:29 PM
> Subject: [guispeak] here's the missing post...
>
>
> Hi Dave and all -- here is the post that never came back to me. Not that
> it
> is such an important and earth-shattering post, but I do want my posts to
> get through...
>
> Anyway, here it is:
>
> Hi Dave --
> Well that's true to an extent, if there are several choices of something
> available to the general public, but only the most expensive is accessible
> to blind. (I ran into this even with something as unrelated as a sewing
> machine -- the only accessible one was top-of-the-line, which my Mom
> bought,
> but I felt awful having her pay that much.)
>
> But on the other hand, you are not talking about driving a cadillac -- you
> are talking about driving a horse-drawn carriage (win95) which almost no
> one
> uses any more, and the currently available operating systems are all so
> much
> more accessible, or have so many more hooks to work with screen reaaders,
> that upgrading is really not only wise, but will soon become essential.
>
> Now I was a bit annoyed at having to buy a gsm cell phone with all kinds
> of
> features I didn't need, in order to have the menus speak. But I encourage
> software companies to develop such accessible software, even if I have to
> spend a little to be a guinea pig.
> Now that I've had a job -- at least long enough to have a little money to
> spend experimenting on such things, I really have enjoyed getting involved
> in the troubleshooting, and if it eventually filters down to the less
> expensive phones and systems, all the better.
> (But it was really a very overpriced phone!<frown>)
>
> Take care, and try copying your data and upgrading your operating system.
> Take care!
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "david poehlman" <
> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> To: <
> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:38 PM
> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>
>> It is a fact that 70 percent of blind people are unemployed or at least
>> under employed so Accessibility includes a multiplicity of things in this
>> instance, such as:
>> Can I access it with my ancient computer? Can I aford to get on the
>> internet to access it? Can I access it without a sound card and get
>> benefit
>> out of it? I'm afraid that w eneed to think hard when we say that
>> something
>> is accessible. Saying that asking too much is offputting is doging the
>> issue. There are degrees of accessibility so if you announce something,
>> it
>> is best o say that there is this thang a happenin' and if ya wanna
>> partake
>> of it, ya gotta be able to drive a cadelak.
>>
>> Johnnie Apple Seed
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>
>> To: <
> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:26 PM
>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Hi Will,
>>
>> But that's simply a matter of meeting the application's system
>> requirements.
>> Certainly, from a blindness or even a disabilities point of view, this
>> has
>> nothing to do with the application's accessibility. All that concerns me
>> is, well, can I use the application as a person with a disability, so
>> long
>> as I otherwise can meet the mainstream system requirements? By bringing
>> in
>> other things that aren't directly relevant to accessibility for users
>> with
>> disabilities, we run the risk of turning mainstream developers off our
>> pleas
>> for greater accessibility for our needs. Let's only ask for what's
>> absolutely required.
>>
>> Besides, Windows 95 is very old now... Time for folks to upgrade.
>>
>>
>>
>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>>
> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Will Pearson" <
> will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>> To: <
> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:16 PM
>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>>
>>
>>> Hi;
>>>
>>> It is an accessibility issue in the pure sense of accessibility.
>>> Accessibility is a measure of whether someone can do something, and this
>>> regards whether the application in question can be accessed by those
>>> running
>>> operating systems that the application did not target during it's SDLC.
>>>
>>> Will
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>> To: <
> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 7:09 PM
>>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi David,
>>>>
>>>> Probably not, but that is an OS compatibility issue, not one of
>>>> accessibility. We need to keep these issues well separated.
>>>>
>>>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>>>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>>>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>>>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>>>>
> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>>>>
> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "david poehlman" <
> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>>> To: <
> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:25 AM
>>>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > can I use windows.95?
>>>> >
>>>> > Johnnie Apple Seed
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>>> > To: <
> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:19 PM
>>>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi David,
>>>> >
>>>> > Looks reasonably accessible. What's wrong with it?
>>>> >
>>>> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>>>> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>>>> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
>>>> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>>>
> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>>>> >
> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "david poehlman" <
> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>>> > To: <
> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 6:59 AM
>>>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> too bad it's not accessible to most users.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: "Andy Baracco" <
> wq6r@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>>> >> To: <
> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>>> >> Cc: <
> whoweare@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> ; <
> acb-l@xxxxxxx>
> ;
>>> <
> ccb-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:14 AM
>>>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> >>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:43:45 -0500
>>>> >>>From: Lynn Evans <
> evans-lynn@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>>>> >>>To:
> VICUG-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> >>>
> Subject: Fw: online internet learning session
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Hello VICUG listers
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>If you or someone you know are interested in learning more about
>>>> >>>the
>>>> >>>power
>>>> >>>of the internet please go to this link below.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>Monday, November 15, beginning at 11:00 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>> 10:00
>>>> >>>Central, 9:00 Mountain, and 8:00 Pacific:
>>>> >>>Introduction to the Internet, the Web, and iVocalize. Get an
>>>> >>>overview
>>> and
>>>> >>>basic orientation to the power and richness of the Internet, the
>>>> >>>World
>>>> >>>Wide
>>>> >>>Web, and iVocalize, the software program from Talking Communities
>>>> >>>used
>>>> >>>for
>>>> >>>OPAL programs. Learn the basics of email, browsing, text chat,
>>>> >>>voice-over-IP
>>>> >>>conversations, searching, and information retrieval. Whether you
>>>> >>>want
>>> to
>>>> >>>use
>>>> >>>the Internet and the Web to learn, work, communicate, play, or all
>>>> >>>of
>>> the
>>>> >>>above, this session will have something for you. Facilitated by Tom
>>>> >>>Peters.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>If the links above aren't active please use the link below:
>>>> >>>http://www.opal-online.org/programs.htm
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
>>>> >>>To join or leave the list, send a message to
>>>> >>>listserv@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In the body of the message, simply
>>> type
>>>> >>>"subscribe vicug-l" or "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the quotations.
>>>> >>> VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide Web at
>>>> >>>http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html
>>>> >>
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