[guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
- From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:43:01 -0500
Hi Will --
Thanks for that insight. I was also wondering however if blind persons in
Britain are more pressured into jobs, as you say, selling lottery tickets
and such... I guess it isn't always necessary for someone to be a pioneer
into a new field, but with the changing technology it is certainly a much
more level playing field now for blind and other handicapped persons than
was ever dreamed of even a few decades ago. And someone has to take the
plunge and try something new -- but I agree, to expect everyone to do
that -- which is stressful -- is probably not a good idea, and career does
eat up a lot of a person's time and energy and some people legitimately
don't choose that path and go into equally important activities instead.
I guess I don't regret the career path, which I chose partly and largely
because I thought raising kids wouldn't be right for me, for reasons I won't
go into in detail, although I love kids and have doted over my brother's
kids -- and I think again that people who do take different paths need to
work together instead of individually or against each other.
Just curious as I have never been to Britain, but know they disagree with us
on many points, especially with the Iraq thing, which I also have a lot of
misgivings about. (But I'm glad I'm not president... I'd probably not do
well in politics or military.)
Take care!
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 7:30 AM
Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
> Hi Laura;
>
> I don't believe anyone was flaming anyone else, it's just a philosophical
> debate, and those tend to get a little entrenched *smile*.
>
> Culture, in the socialogical sense of being a set of shared values and
> norms, is a funny thing, and probably explains the differences. The
> European culture, certainly that found in continental Europe is one to the
> left of the political spectrum, I even hear from a friend that if you're
> blind in Spain you get a lot of free equipment and a job selling lottery
> tickets. Whether this is true or not, I don't know, but it does typify
> the
> more left wing culture. Compare this to countries where the culture is
> more
> towards the individual bares the responsibility, and there's a difference,
> with the UK sitting in the middle, as usual *smile*. This can also be
> accounted for by psychology, where the more you are exposed to stimuli,
> such
> as people saying you are expected to buy your own screen reader, the more
> you become conditioned to believe it.
>
> Where constantly upgrading equipment, and possibly even buying it in the
> first place, hits a problem, is in those cultures where the expectation is
> that people should buy their own equipment. Some elements of society may
> be
> able to afford this, however some may not. This isn't to do with the cost
> of technology, as technology providers have to cover their costs, but is
> the
> technological divide between the have's and have nots. Simply put, some
> people just can't afford the pace of change on their own. The question of
> how this is to be overcome is one I'm not really qualified to answer, but
> I'm not a proponent of holding back technilogical advance, rather just
> aware
> that some people may not be able to cope with that pace of advancement
> compared to others, and one such group is people with disabilities, where,
> according to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which is a sociological
> research group in the UK, unemployment is higher in this social group
> compared to the national average. It's a tough problem to sort out, as
> the
> price of technology is about right in relation to costs of production, and
> so it's unreasonable to expect prices to lower. Yet, there's got to be a
> way found so that everyone who wishes to can benefit from the
> technological
> evolution, as no one's denying that computers and the broader spectrum of
> technology can bring tremendous benefits to people.
>
> Will
> Who really should have done sociology rather than computer studies *smile*
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 2:02 AM
> Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>
>
>> Oh, sorry Will -- I know things are different in different countries, and
>> also across the atlantic... But I am not so much flaming or trying to
> prove
>> a point (although it sounds that way) but just sharing ideas, and like to
>> hear why people disagree, if they disagree, as that can help everybody
> think
>> more clearly.
>> But again, backward compatibility is important -- again, not to the
> extreme,
>> but at least for a while -- and I was actually in development and not
>> research at AT&T and could see the problems customers were having,
> although
>> I saw the reasoning of the research types as well.
>> I had to take their prototypes and make them products, which was
>> sometimes
> a
>> major undertaking if it wasn't designed well.
>> And for a little while I did customer support and got direct feedback
>> from
>> customers, and many of them indeed did want to slow down the change or
> keep
>> things compatible, for very valid reasons.
>> Anyway, I don't want to make a big deal about it or promote one political
>> view above another -- just speak according to my experience, which is
>> limited but I think different from other's experience and therefore might
> be
>> of interest.
>> I hope if you have any future observations and examples you will share
> them.
>> People usually hold their positions for a very good reason and people
>> need
>> to listen to each other -- but hasn't the human race failed miserably at
>> that!
>> Take care and have a great weekend!
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:47 PM
>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>>
>>
>> > Hi Laura;
>> >
>> > No, I'll stop here. What's different is the mind set between the
>> > states
>> > and
>> > europe, something which has been the case for quite some time. So,
> whilst
>> > I
>> > don't like discussing politics any way, others and myself will keep on
>> > going
>> > round in circles due to the transatlantic difference.
>> >
>> > Will
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 1:15 AM
>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>> >
>> >
>> >> Will -- I agree to a point, but at some point backward compatibility
> puts
>> > a
>> >> real drag on a technology and it is best to update even if it is hard.
>> >> Now as for Iraq, it is actually a wealthy country, although the
> resources
>> >> are mostly divided among a few rich families.
>> >> But with some appropriate business moves and maybe government
>> > redistribution
>> >> of wealth and funding of schools and such, then selling or sending
>> >> them
>> > old,
>> >> outdated technology is not only inappropriate but would be
>> > counterproductive
>> >> for them and bad for business for us.
>> >> Actually, distributing something new is much cheaper than trying to
>> >> resurrect or reallocate something that is old or worn out, especially
>> > where
>> >> computers are concerned.
>> >> But that's just a thought for your consideration -- if you disagree,
> feel
>> >> free to flame away and I may listen...
>> >> Take care!
>> >> --le
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:01 PM
>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Ah, but Mr. Shandro, the digital devide is all about accessibility.
>> >> > Accessibility isn't purely the domain of people with disabilities,
>> >> > if
>> > you
>> >> > think it is, then you really are kidding yourself. Accessibility is
>> >> > purely
>> >> > about whether someone can do something, and that can equally be
> applied
>> > to
>> >> > the people down the street as it can someone with a disability. So,
>> >> > whether
>> >> > it works on low cost machines is a matter of accessibility, but just
>> >> > accessibility for people who can only afford low cost machines, not
>> >> > accessibility for people with disabilities.
>> >> >
>> >> > If you think accessibility only concerns people with disabilities,
> then
>> > I
>> >> > suggest you take a look at an earlier post I made in this thread, in
>> > which
>> >> > I
>> >> > stated accessibility is a measure of whether someone can do
>> >> > something
>> >> > or
>> >> > not, then have a look at the world around you. I see at the bottom
> of
>> >> > your
>> >> > sig block you mention the war in Iraq. Do you think those thousands
> of
>> >> > innocent civillians who were tortured under Saddam can afford the
>> >> > latest
>> >> > technology. Probably not, and as such the latest technology is not
>> >> > accessible to them.
>> >> >
>> >> > Accessibility is about more attributes than purely whether you are
>> >> > disabled
>> >> > or not.
>> >> >
>> >> > Will
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:37 PM
>> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi David,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Well, in your scenario below, I guess I'd just have to do without
> the
>> > new
>> >> >> technology. That's pretty simple. If I work harder or do things
>> >> >> differently, I might be able to make some more money to get the
> newer
>> >> >> technology. I just don't consider this to be a matter of
>> > accessibility.
>> >> >> Maybe it is one of those "digital divide" issues, but it has
>> >> >> nothing
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> do
>> >> >> with my mission of improving the lives of my blind brothers and
>> >> >> sisters
>> >> >> through the implementation of proper accessibility.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >> >> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>> >> >> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >> >> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> > http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
> Freedom!
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:48 PM
>> >> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > So darrell,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > What would you do if you were the father of 6 and had a min9imum
>> >> >> > wage
>> >> > job
>> >> >> > and your wife was ill and you had this old pc that ran windows.95
> or
>> >> >> > dos
>> >> >> > or
>> >> >> > maybe you decided you would put linux on it because all the stuff
>> >> >> > was
>> >> > free
>> >> >> > and along came this fantastic new technology that you couldn't
> get?
>> > I
>> >> >> > don't
>> >> >> > think we have a back ward compatibility issue here, we have an
>> >> >> > accessibility
>> >> >> > issue here that is a result of lack of backward compatibility.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:34 PM
>> >> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Hi Laura,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Yes. It is all a matter of reasonability rather than
> accessibility
>> >> >> > when
>> >> >> > we're talking about backward compatibility. I feel it is
> important
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > we
>> >> >> > make a differentiation here. Technology advances and there's
>> >> >> > just
>> >> >> > no
>> >> > way
>> >> >> > around that. We're all in big trouble if we're going to
>> >> >> > associate
> a
>> >> >> > desire
>> >> >> > for backward compatibility with the need for accessibility for
>> >> >> > people
>> >> > with
>> >> >> > disabilities.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >> >> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>> >> >> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >> >> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> >> > http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >> >> > All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
>> > Freedom!
>> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> > From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> > To: "guispeak" <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:29 PM
>> >> >> > Subject: [guispeak] here's the missing post...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Hi Dave and all -- here is the post that never came back to me.
>> >> >> >> Not
>> >> > that
>> >> >> >> it
>> >> >> >> is such an important and earth-shattering post, but I do want my
>> > posts
>> >> > to
>> >> >> >> get through...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Anyway, here it is:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hi Dave --
>> >> >> >> Well that's true to an extent, if there are several choices of
>> >> > something
>> >> >> >> available to the general public, but only the most expensive is
>> >> >> >> accessible
>> >> >> >> to blind. (I ran into this even with something as unrelated as
>> >> >> >> a
>> >> > sewing
>> >> >> >> machine -- the only accessible one was top-of-the-line, which my
>> >> >> >> Mom
>> >> >> >> bought,
>> >> >> >> but I felt awful having her pay that much.)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> But on the other hand, you are not talking about driving a
>> > cadillac --
>> >> >> >> you
>> >> >> >> are talking about driving a horse-drawn carriage (win95) which
>> > almost
>> >> > no
>> >> >> >> one
>> >> >> >> uses any more, and the currently available operating systems are
>> >> >> >> all
>> >> >> >> so
>> >> >> >> much
>> >> >> >> more accessible, or have so many more hooks to work with screen
>> >> > reaaders,
>> >> >> >> that upgrading is really not only wise, but will soon become
>> >> >> >> essential.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Now I was a bit annoyed at having to buy a gsm cell phone with
> all
>> >> > kinds
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> features I didn't need, in order to have the menus speak. But I
>> >> >> >> encourage
>> >> >> >> software companies to develop such accessible software, even if
>> >> >> >> I
>> > have
>> >> > to
>> >> >> >> spend a little to be a guinea pig.
>> >> >> >> Now that I've had a job -- at least long enough to have a little
>> > money
>> >> > to
>> >> >> >> spend experimenting on such things, I really have enjoyed
>> >> >> >> getting
>> >> >> >> involved
>> >> >> >> in the troubleshooting, and if it eventually filters down to the
>> > less
>> >> >> >> expensive phones and systems, all the better.
>> >> >> >> (But it was really a very overpriced phone!<frown>)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Take care, and try copying your data and upgrading your
>> >> >> >> operating
>> >> > system.
>> >> >> >> Take care!
>> >> >> >> --le
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >> From: "david poehlman" <
>> >> >> >> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> To: <
>> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:38 PM
>> >> >> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
> (fwd)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> It is a fact that 70 percent of blind people are unemployed or
> at
>> >> > least
>> >> >> >>> under employed so Accessibility includes a multiplicity of
> things
>> > in
>> >> >> >>> this
>> >> >> >>> instance, such as:
>> >> >> >>> Can I access it with my ancient computer? Can I aford to get
>> >> >> >>> on
>> > the
>> >> >> >>> internet to access it? Can I access it without a sound card
>> >> >> >>> and
>> > get
>> >> >> >>> benefit
>> >> >> >>> out of it? I'm afraid that w eneed to think hard when we say
> that
>> >> >> >>> something
>> >> >> >>> is accessible. Saying that asking too much is offputting is
>> >> >> >>> doging
>> >> > the
>> >> >> >>> issue. There are degrees of accessibility so if you announce
>> >> > something,
>> >> >> >>> it
>> >> >> >>> is best o say that there is this thang a happenin' and if ya
> wanna
>> >> >> >>> partake
>> >> >> >>> of it, ya gotta be able to drive a cadelak.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
>> >> >> >> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> To: <
>> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:26 PM
>> >> >> >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
> (fwd)
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Hi Will,
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> But that's simply a matter of meeting the application's system
>> >> >> >>> requirements.
>> >> >> >>> Certainly, from a blindness or even a disabilities point of
> view,
>> >> >> >>> this
>> >> >> >>> has
>> >> >> >>> nothing to do with the application's accessibility. All that
>> >> >> >>> concerns
>> >> >> >>> me
>> >> >> >>> is, well, can I use the application as a person with a
> disability,
>> > so
>> >> >> >>> long
>> >> >> >>> as I otherwise can meet the mainstream system requirements? By
>> >> > bringing
>> >> >> >>> in
>> >> >> >>> other things that aren't directly relevant to accessibility for
>> > users
>> >> >> >>> with
>> >> >> >>> disabilities, we run the risk of turning mainstream developers
> off
>> >> >> >>> our
>> >> >> >>> pleas
>> >> >> >>> for greater accessibility for our needs. Let's only ask for
>> >> >> >>> what's
>> >> >> >>> absolutely required.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Besides, Windows 95 is very old now... Time for folks to
> upgrade.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >> >> >>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems
>> >> >> >>> administrator!
>> >> >> >>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >> >> >>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> >> >> >> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
>> > Freedom!
>> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>> From: "Will Pearson" <
>> >> >> >> will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> To: <
>> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:16 PM
>> >> >> >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
> (fwd)
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>> Hi;
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> It is an accessibility issue in the pure sense of
> accessibility.
>> >> >> >>>> Accessibility is a measure of whether someone can do
>> >> >> >>>> something,
>> > and
>> >> >> >>>> this
>> >> >> >>>> regards whether the application in question can be accessed by
>> > those
>> >> >> >>>> running
>> >> >> >>>> operating systems that the application did not target during
> it's
>> >> > SDLC.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Will
>> >> >> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>>> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
>> >> >> >> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>> To: <
>> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 7:09 PM
>> >> >> >>>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
>> >> >> >>>> (fwd)
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Hi David,
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Probably not, but that is an OS compatibility issue, not one
> of
>> >> >> >>>>> accessibility. We need to keep these issues well separated.
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >> >> >>>>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems
> administrator!
>> >> >> >>>>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >> >> >>>>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
>> > Freedom!
>> >> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>>>> From: "david poehlman" <
>> >> >> >> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> To: <
>> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:25 AM
>> >> >> >>>>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
>> > (fwd)
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> > can I use windows.95?
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >>>>> > Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>>>> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
>> >> >> >> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> > To: <
>> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:19 PM
>> >> >> >>>>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning
>> >> >> >>>>> > session
>> >> >> >>>>> > (fwd)
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >>>>> > Hi David,
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >>>>> > Looks reasonably accessible. What's wrong with it?
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >>>>> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >> >> >>>>> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems
>> > administrator!
>> >> >> >>>>> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >> >> >>>>> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
>> > Freedom!
>> >> >> >>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>>>> > From: "david poehlman" <
>> >> >> >> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> > To: <
>> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 6:59 AM
>> >> >> >>>>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning
>> >> >> >>>>> > session
>> >> >> >>>>> > (fwd)
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >>>>> >> too bad it's not accessible to most users.
>> >> >> >>>>> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >> >> >>>>> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>>>> >> From: "Andy Baracco" <
>> >> >> >> wq6r@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> >> To: <
>> >> >> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> >> Cc: <
>> >> >> >> whoweare@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >> ; <
>> >> >> >> acb-l@xxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >> ;
>> >> >> >>>> <
>> >> >> >> ccb-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:14 AM
>> >> >> >>>>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Fw: online internet learning session
>> >> >> >>>>> >> (fwd)
>> >> >> >>>>> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:43:45 -0500
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>From: Lynn Evans <
>> >> >> >> evans-lynn@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>To:
>> >> >> >> VICUG-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>
>> >> >> >> Subject: Fw: online internet learning session
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>Hello VICUG listers
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>If you or someone you know are interested in learning
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>more
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>about
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>the
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>power
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>of the internet please go to this link below.
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>Monday, November 15, beginning at 11:00 a.m. Eastern
> Daylight
>> >> > Time,
>> >> >> >>>> 10:00
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>Central, 9:00 Mountain, and 8:00 Pacific:
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>Introduction to the Internet, the Web, and iVocalize. Get
> an
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>overview
>> >> >> >>>> and
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>basic orientation to the power and richness of the
> Internet,
>> > the
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>World
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>Wide
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>Web, and iVocalize, the software program from Talking
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>Communities
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>used
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>for
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>OPAL programs. Learn the basics of email, browsing, text
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>chat,
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>voice-over-IP
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>conversations, searching, and information retrieval.
> Whether
>> > you
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>want
>> >> >> >>>> to
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>use
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>the Internet and the Web to learn, work, communicate,
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>play,
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>or
>> >> > all
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>of
>> >> >> >>>> the
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>above, this session will have something for you.
> Facilitated
>> > by
>> >> > Tom
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>Peters.
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>If the links above aren't active please use the link
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>below:
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>http://www.opal-online.org/programs.htm
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>To join or leave the list, send a message to
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>listserv@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In the body of the
> message,
>> >> > simply
>> >> >> >>>> type
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>"subscribe vicug-l" or "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>quotations.
>> >> >> >>>>> >>> VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide Web at
>> >> >> >>>>> >>>http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html
>> >> >> >>>>> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
>> > link:-
>> >> >> >>>>> >> **
>> >> >> >>>>> >> [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> >>>>> >> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >>>>> >>
>> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on
>> >> >> >>>>> >> the
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> >>>>> >> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >> >>>>> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
>> > link:-
>> >> >> >>>>> >> **
>> >> >> >>>>> >> [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> >>>>> >> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >>>>> >>
>> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on
>> >> >> >>>>> >> the
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> >>>>> >> ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> >>>>> >> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
>> >> >> >>>>> > link:-
>> >> >> >>>>> > **
> [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> >>>>> > **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on
> the
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> >>>>> > **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
>> >> >> >>>>> > link:-
>> >> >> >>>>> > **
> [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> >>>>> > **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >>>>> >
>> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on
> the
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> >>>>> > ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> >>>>> > **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
> link:-
>> >> >> >>>>> **
>> >> >> >>>>> [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> >>>>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> >>>>> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> >>>>> ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> >>>>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on
>> >> >> >>>>> the
>> >> >> >>>>> ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >>>>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> >>>>> ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> >>>>> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
>> >> >> >>>> link:-
>> >> >> >>>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> >>>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> >>>> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> >>>> ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> >>>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> >> >> >>>> ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >>>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> >>>> ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> >>>> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> >>> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> >>> ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> >>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> >> >> >>> ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> >>> ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> >>> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> >>> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> >>> ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> >>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> >> >> >>> ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> >>> ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> >>> **
>> >> >> >> guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >> with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> >> ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> >> >> >> ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> >> ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> > ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> > ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> >> >> > ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> > ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> > ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> > ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> >> >> > ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> > ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> >> ** unsubscribe
>> >> >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> >> >> ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> >> ** or send a message, to
>> >> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> > ** unsubscribe
>> >> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> >> > ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> > ** or send a message, to
>> >> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>> >>
>> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> ** and in the Subject line type
>> >> ** unsubscribe
>> >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> >> ** immediately-following link:-
>> >> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> >> ** or send a message, to
>> >> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > ** and in the Subject line type
>> > ** unsubscribe
>> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> > ** immediately-following link:-
>> > ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> > ** or send a message, to
>> > ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>>
>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> ** and in the Subject line type
>> ** unsubscribe
>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> ** immediately-following link:-
>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> ** or send a message, to
>> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>>
>
>
> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> ** and in the Subject line type
> ** unsubscribe
> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> ** immediately-following link:-
> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> ** or send a message, to
> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
Other related posts:
