[guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
- From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:11:01 -0500
If we are going to change the topic, maybe we should change the subject.
Johnnie Apple Seed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 6:54 PM
Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
Well, actually, at some point it is really necessary for a person, blind or
not, to be on his/her own.
I know the agenda of the Republican party (which I'm not wholly dedicated
to, but do agree with some of their platform) that with the ADA, employers
are required to make reasonable adaptations to handicapped employees and not
discriminate in hiring -- and that being given, a blind person can
(supposedly) get a job and work his way up and buy his own computer.
Now providing everything -- education and equipment -- to all disabled
persons free is actually not bad to a point, but I got my education and job
and worked a few years before the ADA and think that, people being the way
they sometimes are, can take advantage of things that are better done by
themselves, expecting the slack to always be picked up by the government.
This is fiscally irresponsible on the government's part and also unwise for
a disabled person -- but again, I personally also have more than blindness
as a disability, use a wheelchair, and so I have been glad for the support I
have received over the years when I've needed to use it. Also, a person
can't be judged capable of doing something by an outsider -- only that
person himself or his family (if it's a supportive family) and close friends
and counselors. For one thing, one of my disabilities is that my bones
fractures extremely easily. Now I used to think that old movie "Heidi", in
which a disabled girl was made to walk when she said she couldn't, because
the doc said there was nothing wrong with her. Now if someone had come and
tried to force me to walk, even though I'm not paralyzed, I knew it would be
a disaster, and so I always had to avoid this type of misjudgement. The
same for having just partial vision -- people think you see more...
But I think there needs to be a balance between giving people a hand-up and
a hand-out.
Don't always wait for Uncle Sam to buy something that you think you can get
free if you have enough to get it yourself.
I am indeed sorry if I am sounding like I'm passing judgement on anyone in
particular. Again, it's a case by case thing, and there needs to be
balance.
Eventually a person needs to quit vouchering and start being totally if not
mostly independent, and the sooner a person gets in the habit of thinking
that way, the better off in the long run he will be.
But finding that balance in a changing world is really a problem.
Technology is available now that makes some things that used be disabling no
longer much of a problem, but the world has also changed and continues to
change.
I suppose I'll get flames.
But I am open for opinions.
Also, as for baby boomers, my mother is older than the baby boomers, in fact
she is 80, but she did not hesitate to get a PC when they first came out --
after she was a senior citizen -- and learned to use it, and in fact made
all of us promise that if she should ever be put in a nursing home, she will
always have her computer in the corner... She has used it to publish
newsletters, do genealogical research, and a lot of correspondence and other
things that she couldn't do before she got it, and that made her anxious to
learn it.
Take care!
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: <ptusing@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 6:15 PM
Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
> HI,
> The original post is correct. Baby Boomer peoplew ho become blind in the
> main end up not only buying their own computers--hopefully buying what
> they
> need for the long term--but there is no training.
> this means years of learning the hard and also slow way.
> And then the push is on to toss disabled off assistance programs per
> Social
> Security reform which means that group who socked out its money and had
> to
> hire people to teach them are hit a third time.
> One in my state needs an imminent job.
> Of course the state make no differentiation for blindness or the time
> one
> needs to get up to speed to do that job.
> A blind p erson can go and buy some manual and read it visually. that is
> the rationale behind prviding a computer just before the imminent job.
> For get about the idea that employers want peoplewith the skill set
> already
> learned.
> It is a real problem.
> Even ifthe state will help you, the mandate is that the state must buy the
> absolute cheapest computer out there--one that a sighted person can
> use--meaning most blind do not qualify--even ifthe computer they buy has
> the
> wrong microprocessor and will barely support the robust needs of screen
> readers etc.
> One can find oneself on one's own p darn quick.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 5:31 PM
> Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>
>
>> le,
>>
>> I wish it were true. You have to either be accepted into school or in a
>> situation that rehab feels it is appropriate to give you technology for.
>> You don't just get a pc because you need one for your daily activities.
> If
>> I needed a pc today, I could not get one.
>>
>> Johnnie Apple Seed
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 5:20 PM
>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>>
>>
>> Hi Dave -- well, a person might be able to get a grant for a new
>> computer.
>> But in the case of accessibility, if the person or one of his family had
>> a
>> disability that required a new technology, the government would
>> definitely
>> pay for it in this case.
>> It is always true that no matter what society or government you have, the
>> richer people are going to have more access than poorer. That's sad but
> it
>> is unavoidable. But if the lack of that technology holds a person back,
>> either from accessibility for a handicap, or just getting a job or an
>> education, then I think the argument can be made that he/she has a case
> and
>> can get equipment purchased by the gov, or is that not true?
>> Take care!
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:48 PM
>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>>
>>
>> > So darrell,
>> >
>> > What would you do if you were the father of 6 and had a min9imum wage
> job
>> > and your wife was ill and you had this old pc that ran windows.95 or
>> > dos
>> > or
>> > maybe you decided you would put linux on it because all the stuff was
> free
>> > and along came this fantastic new technology that you couldn't get? I
>> > don't
>> > think we have a back ward compatibility issue here, we have an
>> > accessibility
>> > issue here that is a result of lack of backward compatibility.
>> >
>> > Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:34 PM
>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: here's the missing post...
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Laura,
>> >
>> > Yes. It is all a matter of reasonability rather than accessibility
>> > when
>> > we're talking about backward compatibility. I feel it is important
>> > that
>> > we
>> > make a differentiation here. Technology advances and there's just no
> way
>> > around that. We're all in big trouble if we're going to associate a
>> > desire
>> > for backward compatibility with the need for accessibility for people
> with
>> > disabilities.
>> >
>> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> > All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: "guispeak" <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:29 PM
>> > Subject: [guispeak] here's the missing post...
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hi Dave and all -- here is the post that never came back to me. Not
> that
>> >> it
>> >> is such an important and earth-shattering post, but I do want my posts
> to
>> >> get through...
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, here it is:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Dave --
>> >> Well that's true to an extent, if there are several choices of
> something
>> >> available to the general public, but only the most expensive is
>> >> accessible
>> >> to blind. (I ran into this even with something as unrelated as a
> sewing
>> >> machine -- the only accessible one was top-of-the-line, which my Mom
>> >> bought,
>> >> but I felt awful having her pay that much.)
>> >>
>> >> But on the other hand, you are not talking about driving a cadillac --
>> >> you
>> >> are talking about driving a horse-drawn carriage (win95) which almost
> no
>> >> one
>> >> uses any more, and the currently available operating systems are all
>> >> so
>> >> much
>> >> more accessible, or have so many more hooks to work with screen
> reaaders,
>> >> that upgrading is really not only wise, but will soon become
>> >> essential.
>> >>
>> >> Now I was a bit annoyed at having to buy a gsm cell phone with all
> kinds
>> >> of
>> >> features I didn't need, in order to have the menus speak. But I
>> >> encourage
>> >> software companies to develop such accessible software, even if I have
> to
>> >> spend a little to be a guinea pig.
>> >> Now that I've had a job -- at least long enough to have a little money
> to
>> >> spend experimenting on such things, I really have enjoyed getting
>> >> involved
>> >> in the troubleshooting, and if it eventually filters down to the less
>> >> expensive phones and systems, all the better.
>> >> (But it was really a very overpriced phone!<frown>)
>> >>
>> >> Take care, and try copying your data and upgrading your operating
> system.
>> >> Take care!
>> >> --le
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "david poehlman" <
>> >> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >> To: <
>> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:38 PM
>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>> >>
>> >>> It is a fact that 70 percent of blind people are unemployed or at
> least
>> >>> under employed so Accessibility includes a multiplicity of things in
>> >>> this
>> >>> instance, such as:
>> >>> Can I access it with my ancient computer? Can I aford to get on the
>> >>> internet to access it? Can I access it without a sound card and get
>> >>> benefit
>> >>> out of it? I'm afraid that w eneed to think hard when we say that
>> >>> something
>> >>> is accessible. Saying that asking too much is offputting is doging
> the
>> >>> issue. There are degrees of accessibility so if you announce
> something,
>> >>> it
>> >>> is best o say that there is this thang a happenin' and if ya wanna
>> >>> partake
>> >>> of it, ya gotta be able to drive a cadelak.
>> >>>
>> >>> Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
>> >> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>> To: <
>> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:26 PM
>> >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Will,
>> >>>
>> >>> But that's simply a matter of meeting the application's system
>> >>> requirements.
>> >>> Certainly, from a blindness or even a disabilities point of view,
>> >>> this
>> >>> has
>> >>> nothing to do with the application's accessibility. All that
>> >>> concerns
>> >>> me
>> >>> is, well, can I use the application as a person with a disability, so
>> >>> long
>> >>> as I otherwise can meet the mainstream system requirements? By
> bringing
>> >>> in
>> >>> other things that aren't directly relevant to accessibility for users
>> >>> with
>> >>> disabilities, we run the risk of turning mainstream developers off
>> >>> our
>> >>> pleas
>> >>> for greater accessibility for our needs. Let's only ask for what's
>> >>> absolutely required.
>> >>>
>> >>> Besides, Windows 95 is very old now... Time for folks to upgrade.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>> >>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> >> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >>>
>> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: "Will Pearson" <
>> >> will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>> To: <
>> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:16 PM
>> >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hi;
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It is an accessibility issue in the pure sense of accessibility.
>> >>>> Accessibility is a measure of whether someone can do something, and
>> >>>> this
>> >>>> regards whether the application in question can be accessed by those
>> >>>> running
>> >>>> operating systems that the application did not target during it's
> SDLC.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Will
>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
>> >> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>> To: <
>> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 7:09 PM
>> >>>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Hi David,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Probably not, but that is an OS compatibility issue, not one of
>> >>>>> accessibility. We need to keep these issues well separated.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >>>>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>> >>>>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >>>>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> >>>>>
>> >> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >>>>>
>> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>> From: "david poehlman" <
>> >> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>>> To: <
>> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:25 AM
>> >>>>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> > can I use windows.95?
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <
>> >> nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>>> > To: <
>> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:19 PM
>> >>>>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
>> >>>>> > (fwd)
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Hi David,
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Looks reasonably accessible. What's wrong with it?
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
>> >>>>> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
>> >>>>> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
>> >>>>> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
>> >>>>
>> >> http://ld.net/?nu7i
>> >>>>> >
>> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
>> >>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>> > From: "david poehlman" <
>> >> david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>>> > To: <
>> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 6:59 AM
>> >>>>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Fw: online internet learning session
>> >>>>> > (fwd)
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> too bad it's not accessible to most users.
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>> >> From: "Andy Baracco" <
>> >> wq6r@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>>> >> To: <
>> >> guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>>> >> Cc: <
>> >> whoweare@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> ; <
>> >> acb-l@xxxxxxx>
>> >> ;
>> >>>> <
>> >> ccb-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:14 AM
>> >>>>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Fw: online internet learning session (fwd)
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> >>>>> >>>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:43:45 -0500
>> >>>>> >>>From: Lynn Evans <
>> >> evans-lynn@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>
>> >>>>> >>>To:
>> >> VICUG-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >> Subject: Fw: online internet learning session
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>Hello VICUG listers
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>If you or someone you know are interested in learning more
>> >>>>> >>>about
>> >>>>> >>>the
>> >>>>> >>>power
>> >>>>> >>>of the internet please go to this link below.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>Monday, November 15, beginning at 11:00 a.m. Eastern Daylight
> Time,
>> >>>> 10:00
>> >>>>> >>>Central, 9:00 Mountain, and 8:00 Pacific:
>> >>>>> >>>Introduction to the Internet, the Web, and iVocalize. Get an
>> >>>>> >>>overview
>> >>>> and
>> >>>>> >>>basic orientation to the power and richness of the Internet, the
>> >>>>> >>>World
>> >>>>> >>>Wide
>> >>>>> >>>Web, and iVocalize, the software program from Talking
>> >>>>> >>>Communities
>> >>>>> >>>used
>> >>>>> >>>for
>> >>>>> >>>OPAL programs. Learn the basics of email, browsing, text chat,
>> >>>>> >>>voice-over-IP
>> >>>>> >>>conversations, searching, and information retrieval. Whether you
>> >>>>> >>>want
>> >>>> to
>> >>>>> >>>use
>> >>>>> >>>the Internet and the Web to learn, work, communicate, play, or
> all
>> >>>>> >>>of
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>> >>>above, this session will have something for you. Facilitated by
> Tom
>> >>>>> >>>Peters.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>If the links above aren't active please use the link below:
>> >>>>> >>>http://www.opal-online.org/programs.htm
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>VICUG-L is the Visually Impaired Computer User Group List.
>> >>>>> >>>To join or leave the list, send a message to
>> >>>>> >>>listserv@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In the body of the message,
> simply
>> >>>> type
>> >>>>> >>>"subscribe vicug-l" or "unsubscribe vicug-l" without the
>> >>>>> >>>quotations.
>> >>>>> >>> VICUG-L is archived on the World Wide Web at
>> >>>>> >>>http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/vicug-l.html
>> >>>>> >>
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>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> ** and in the Subject line type
>> ** unsubscribe
>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> ** immediately-following link:-
>> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
>> ** or send a message, to
>> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
>
> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> ** and in the Subject line type
> ** unsubscribe
> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> ** immediately-following link:-
> ** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
> ** or send a message, to
> ** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** guispeak-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq
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