[greenstone_pt] Re: About a multilingual prototype
- From: rafael.antonio@xxxxxxx
- To: greenstone_pt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:24:04 +0000
Claudia
If want to become available diferente screen translations O.k. But after that
you acess documents. Do you think to translate too all documents???????
Rafael
Citando Claudia Wanderley <cmwanderley@xxxxxxxxx>:
> Dear Rafael,
> As you know, the Portuguese speaking countries had and have their own local
> cultures and languages. Yes, we have other common languages among us,
> historically due to the caravels route. You can read more about it in Felipe
> de Alencastro`s book "O trato dos viventes". Or you`ll be amused to learn
> that many slaves that came from Africa were Muslims and brought their
> literature to Brazil, read in Arabic, and started a black market on Arabic
> literature - this you can find in Gilberto Freire. Yoruba, Banto languages,
> Malaio portugues, Arabic, yes, we still have some contacts.
> And you know what`s more wonderful? One of the guy that showed us this living
> connections in Brazil is French, anthropologist, Levy Strauss. Prof. Bonvini,
> he`s Italian, told me that the first Bantu Grammar was written in Bahia,
> Brazil. Isn`t that something!?
> Also we have common languages due to immigration. Did you know that the
> second most spoken language in Brazil is Japanese? And, of course, business
> plays a major role on multilingualism issues. Have you wondered why we
> correspond in English?
> For my interest in Multilingualism, I`m a linguist Rafael.
> Best regards,
> Claudia
>
> 2009/2/19 <rafael.antonio@xxxxxxx[1]>
>
>
> Claudia,
>
> To be honest I do not understand what you want about multilingualism.
> I know a little about Angola and Cabo Verde but they seem very diferent.
> Angola has a portuguese oficial language and a lot of dialects but only used
> for each comunity.
> Cabo Verde has too portuguese as oficial language and crioulo has a second
> language, sometimes the main comunication language.
> May be Brasil has some similarities.
> If you want to share digital documents (what GreenStone does) may be the only
> common language is portuguese.
> Why this interest on what you call multilingualism???
>
> Regards,
> Rafael
>
>
> Citando Claudia Wanderley <cmwanderley@xxxxxxxxx>: Dear John,
> our subject is multilingualism. You are right. And we are in countries that
> speak Portuguese. In fact, we have reached for you to comprehend
> multilingualism possibilities in Greenstone.
>
> There are strong local languages in Portuguese speaking countries, called
> national languages, minor languages, with considerable amount of cultural
> production. Also, it is important to say, these languages lives don`t fit in
> western model of "language and literature", they`re not a closed system. A
> same person in Angola, for instance, can speak four languages in a day, for
> different activities at home, in the office, with the familiy, on the
> market... So the idea of a digital library that could work metaphorically in
> such linguistic practice would do a better job to include our local languages
> production in digital world. Beacuse it is necessary to able to shift from
> one language to another, as the speaker does.
>
> We could be both lists? Because we are both of them. We`re debating for
> Multilingualism, and we`re starting to do it in Portuguese speaking
> countries. I just think it`s important not to "erase" multilingualism debate
> from the portuguese list. Should we open another one? Do you have an ongoing
> list on multilingualism?
>
> And yes, it would be wonderful to have specialists for a general discussion
> on multilingualism. Perfect.
>
> Best,
> Claudia
>
> 2009/2/19 John Rose <john.rose1@xxxxxxx>
> Dear Claudia,
>
> I am a bit confused. I thought that the subject of this list was to discuss
> (in Portuguese) the evaluation/improvement, promotion and use of Greenstone
> in Portuguese speaking countries (including use of local languages in those
> countries) and to provide help to users with questions/problems.
>
> If we want to have a general discussion on mulitlingualism in digital
> libraries, then perhaps we should have another list for this, in which we
> would invite participants worldwide who are interested in this problem. I
> guess that in such a discussion the contributions would probably be in
> English to ensure maximum mutual understanding.
>
> Coming back to Chinese (but not sure why Nadia has been focusing on this,
> rather than for example on Arabic or Russian which like Chinese are UNESCO
> languages using non-Latin characters and with full operational Greenstone
> interfaces. I don't think that the problem of pinyin versus Chinese ideograms
> is so fundamentally different from correctly transliterating Arabic or
> Russian into Latin script (of course Chinese is more complicated since there
> is I believe not always a unique mapping between a pinyin phoneme, even with
> the tone indicated, and the corresponding Chinese ideogram, but some
> ambiguities exist in almost all transliteration schemes - as well as the
> problem that many scholarly works, especially older ones, use non-standard or
> alternative transliteration schemes). Greenstone has no special functionality
> to support double use of a language - in its native character form and in
> transliterated form. This could be interesting for linguistic scholars but
> the vast majority of speakers of a language would want to access information
> in their native character set, not through transliterated characters. It
> would technically be possible to provide a pinyin user interface and also to
> search on metadata and/or full text in pinyin or ideograms or even (I believe
> but not certain) mixed combinations, but I have not seen an example of this
> sort of specialized linguistic DL application.
>
> Greenstone is trying to provide, evaluate and maintain the largest number
> possible of language interfaces. Because of the immense amount of work
> involved, and the importance of having users take responsibility for deciding
> which languages to use, all of the language interface work is undertaken by
> volunteer translators.
>
> Hope this clarifies, perhaps it would be best to move the discussion on
> Chinese to individual correspondence if you want to proceed? Our Chinese
> specialist Anna Huang is receiving this message and could perhaps provide any
> further advice which she might have on this specific subject directly to you
> and Nadia. Best regards, John
>
> At 02:43 19/02/2009, you wrote:
> Dears,
> as a linguist, not understanding very well what you`re talking about, if we
> put the chinese data in - Nadia, I found the name - pinyin (the romanization
> of mandarin ), could it work?
> Meaning, is it possible to build the chinese data in both systems, pinyin and
> chinese ideograms, in a way that they are equivalent for this system? Is this
> GLI translation capable of inter/trans-characters translations, or better is
> there transliteration availability?
> Best,
> Claudia
>
> 2009/2/18 John Rose <john.rose1@xxxxxxx>
> Dear Nadia,
>
> I thought we were supposed to be speaking in Portuguese on this list (except
> for me) (-:
>
> There are 4 different aspects to the language interface: i) the spreadsheets
> you have to translate the user interface, ii) translations of the metadata
> names (there is a facility in GLI for translation of terms which are not
> already included in the metadata reference files, which could also be
> modified if you choose) iii) the language of the metadata, and iv) the
> language(s) of the documents themselves. All of these can easily be handled
> for a single language applying to a given collection, and it is also
> straightforward to separate a collection of documents in several languages
> into sub-collections (by cross collection searching or by partitioning the
> indexes).
>
> But right now, I understand, the metadata names in the search boxes will not
> change to the language of a changed language preference (they will stay in
> the language in which the collection was built). However, the classifier
> names will change if you have translated them with the GLI translation
> facility. I also understand that the former situation will be improved in the
> next version (v2.82).
>
> There is a bug in v2.81 with exploding CDS/ISIS databases, and there is a
> rather complicated procedure to get around this that I could provide. Else
> this works find with 2.80 and will be fixed in next release (probably already
> in the nightly snapshot releases if you want to use this). Probably it is the
> same thing with BibTex, for which v2.80 should also be fine.
>
> Chinese is special in that they do not separate words. v2.80 separates the
> characters internally so that text searches are possible. v2.81 extends this
> to searches of metadata content. I'm not surprised that there were problems
> with v2.73. Please not that this segmentation problem is special for Chinese.
> Other languages with non-Latin character sets (Arabic, Tamil, etc.) have
> worked fine before because the words are separated by spaces.
>
> Bonne continuation, very interesting,
> waiting for further experiments, John
>
>
> At 20:39 18/02/2009, you wrote:
> Hi John (and all),
>
> Right now I got a small prototype with the languages listed below, mainly
> from
> portuguese countries.
> I am at the first step, checking how far can we go with the languages,
> and trying to discover if we got a frontier. At least for now, the only
> problem is listing utf8 languages with a different alphabet like chinese.
> The idea is having documents and interfaces on several languages,
> so if one knows only kaigang, this person would be able to access the
> system.
> The next step would be translate the dublin core information for each item
> so someone who speaks kaigang knows that there is something in kabuverdianu
> about the subject he is searching.
>
> I am using Greenstone 2.73 only because I wasn't able to explode some bibtex
> data on the last version (and I was already used with it...). But other
> versions
> and applications are welcome. We can exchange experience too.
>
> I am attaching a printscreen of title's list and the languages list. You can
> see
> that the chinese title is missing, but I am able to do a search
> in chinese.(Since it's just a first prototype, please
> forgive me for the simple interface).
>
> Languages list:
> Chechewa
> Forro
> Ganda
> Guinea Bissau Creole
> kabuverdianu
> Kaigang
> Kikongo
> Mandarin
> Oshiwambo
>
>
> Regards,
> nadia.
> Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="titles.JPG"
> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="titles.JPG"
> X-Attachment-Id: f_frcedd0w0
>
>
> Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="languages.JPG"
> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="languages.JPG"
> X-Attachment-Id: f_frcednok1
>
>
> Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="search_chinese.JPG"
> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="search_chinese.JPG"
> X-Attachment-Id: f_frceomw02
>
>
>
> John B. Rose
> 1 Bis, Rue des Châtre-Sacs
> 92310 Sèvres
> France
> Email: <john.rose1@xxxxxxx>
> (in case of bounce then send to <
> johnrose@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>)
>
>
>
>
> --
> Claudia Wanderley
> tel. +55 19 91362441
John B. Rose
1 Bis, Rue des Châtre-Sacs
92310 Sèvres
France
Email: <john.rose1@xxxxxxx>
(in case of bounce then send to <johnrose@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>)
--
Claudia Wanderley
tel. +55 19 91362441
--
Claudia Wanderley
tel. +55 19 91362441
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