[gha] Re: Discussion of E. Kahan's article

  • From: "Prof. Ernesto Kahan" <ekahan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "Julia Budnikova" <jb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Leo Semashko" <leo.semashko@xxxxxxxxx>, <gha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <peace-from-harmony@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 19:47:25 +0300

Re: Discussion of E. Kahan's articleDear Julia
Your English is excellent. 
Concerning your critic on the figures as well the titles that appeared in the 
references, you are absolutely right. Thus, because of that and due to the 
delicate issue of the reported numbers, which is not essential for the message 
of my article, I decided no to include to much details. Now you understand my 
Love and Harmony

From: Julia Budnikova 
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:07 PM
To: Prof. Ernesto Kahan ; Leo Semashko ; gha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; 
Subject: Re: Discussion of E. Kahan's article

Dear Ernesto! Thank you for statistics. It was very interesting to examine it. 
Not it is possible to agree with all figures and formulations. The most 
scandalous lie is the paragraph "The Soviet Union against Ukraine". Ukraine was 
part of the Soviet Union and hunger was in 1932 not only in Ukraine, but in 
other regions of the Soviet Union (in Russia). The UN gives statistics of 10 
million. From where these figures? Probably, counted not only Ukraine, but also 
region of Volga and other Russian areas. Here data from documents: "The latest 
data by exact number of victims (3 million 941 thousand people) laid down in 
accusatory part of a sentence of Appellate court of the city of Kiev of January 
13, 2010 on matter in the relation of organizers of the Holodomor — Iosif 
Stalin and other authorities of the Soviet Union and the Ukrainian Soviet 
republic". Excuse me, Ernesto, but the myth that Ukrainians were destroyed on a 
national sign, was created in America in 1984 according to Ronald Reagan's 
instructions. More than 20 years America actively works for quarreling Ukraine 
and Russia. Unfortunately, UN too not the most objective document. Is evident 
that some figures are consciously overestimated, and others are underestimated. 
Therefore I say that giving figures and calling these or those nations, we 
involuntarily start working for any politicians, generally the American. 
Excuse for my English, today nobody helps me, I transport through the Translate.
Once again thanks for your lot of work. Leo as the editor has to think and make 
the proposal on possible new texts.
With love, best harmony wishes
Julia Budnikova

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Prof. Ernesto Kahan 
  To: Julia Budnikova ; Leo Semashko ; gha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 3:54 PM
  Subject: Re: Discussion of E. Kahan's article

  Dear Julia and Leo

  I very much appreciate your idea of adding more events of less than 1 million 
victims in table II, however this will change the criteria as I wrote: 
  “Only in the eleven major events of the 20th Century, in which more than 1 
million civilians were killed in each, were showed in the next table, based on 
data published by the UN REPORT victims of wars in the 20th century [6]:”

  Obviously, every one, can have an special preference in the citation of 
events close to his experience and emotions. I do not see any problem that 
every WHA member wrote a small paper on special events. This is up to Leo, 
because he is the editor.

  In my article there are enough references for consultation if any reader 
wants to complete the information

  If I will include your proposal the table will be as follow, with the 
problem, not only space, but also plagiarism:
  In order to maintain a criteria, lowering the limit for the inclusion, I will 
study the issue, collect permissions, consult different sources, etc. Of course 
it will take some more months
  1899-02: British-Boer war (100,000) 
  1899-03: Colombian civil war (120,000) 
  1899-02: Philippines vs USA (20,000) 
  1900-01: Boxer rebels against Russia, Britain, France, Japan, USA against 
rebels (35,000) 
  1903: Ottomans vs Macedonian rebels (20,000) 
  1904: Germany vs Namibia (65,000) 
  1904-05: Japan vs Russia (150,000) 
  1910-20: Mexican revolution (250,000) 
  1911: Chinese Revolution (2.4 million) 
  1911-12: Italian-Ottoman war (20,000) 
  1912-13: Balkan wars (150,000) 
  1915: the Ottoman empire slaughters Armenians (1.2 million) 
  1915-20: the Ottoman empire slaughters 500,000 Assyrians 
  1916-23: the Ottoman empire slaughters 350,000 Greek Pontians and 480,000 
Anatolian Greeks 
  1914-18: World War I (20 million) 
  1916: Kyrgyz revolt against Russia (120,000) 
  1917-21: Soviet revolution (5 million) 
  1917-19: Greece vs Turkey (45,000) 
  1919-21: Poland vs Soviet Union (27,000) 
  1928-37: Chinese civil war (2 million) 
  1931: Japanese Manchurian War (1.1 million) 
  1932-33: Soviet Union vs Ukraine (10 million) 
  1932: "La Matanza" in El Salvador (30,000) 
  1932-35: "Guerra del Chaco" between Bolivia and Paraguay (117.500) 
  1934: Mao's Long March (170,000) 
  1936: Italy's invasion of Ethiopia (200,000) 
  1936-37: Stalin's purges (13 million) 
  1936-39: Spanish civil war (600,000) 
  1937-45: Japanese invasion of China (500,000) 
  1939-45: World War II (55 million) including holocaust and Chinese revolution 
  1946-49: Chinese civil war (1.2 million) 
  1946-49: Greek civil war (50,000) 
  1946-54: France-Vietnam war (600,000) 
  1947: Partition of India and Pakistan (1 million) 
  1947: Taiwan's uprising against the Kuomintang (30,000) 
  1948-1958: Colombian civil war (250,000) 
  1948-1973: Arab-Israeli wars (70,000) 
  1949-: Indian Muslims vs Hindus (20,000) 
  1949-50: Mainland China vs Tibet (1,200,000) 
  1950-53: Korean war (3 million) 
  1952-59: Kenya's Mau Mau insurrection (20,000) 
  1954-62: French-Algerian war (368,000) 
  1958-61: Mao's "Great Leap Forward" (38 million) 
  1960-90: South Africa vs Africa National Congress (?) 
  1960-96: Guatemala's civil war (200,000) 
  1961-98: Indonesia vs West Papua/Irian (100,000) 
  1961-2003: Kurds vs Iraq (180,000) 
  1962-75: Mozambique Frelimo vs Portugal (10,000) 
  1962-75: Angolan FNLA & MPLA vs Portugal (50,000) 
  1964-73: USA-Vietnam war (3 million) 
  1965: second India-Pakistan war over Kashmir 
  1965-66: Indonesian civil war (250,000) 
  1966-69: Mao's "Cultural Revolution" (11 million) 
  1966-: Colombia's civil war (31,000) 
  1967-70: Nigeria-Biafra civil war (800,000) 
  1968-80: Rhodesia's civil war (?) 
  1969-: Philippines vs the communist Bagong Hukbong Bayan/ New People's Army 
  1969-79: Idi Amin, Uganda (300,000) 
  1969-02: IRA - Norther Ireland's civil war (3,000) 
  1969-79: Francisco Macias Nguema, Equatorial Guinea (50,000) 
  1971: Pakistan-Bangladesh civil war (500,000) 
  1972-: Philippines vs Muslim separatists (Moro Islamic Liberation Front, etc) 
  1972: Burundi's civil war (300,000) 
  1972-79: Rhodesia/Zimbabwe's civil war (30,000) 
  1974-91: Ethiopian civil war (1,000,000) 
  1975-78: Menghitsu, Ethiopia (1.5 million) 
  1975-79: Khmer Rouge, Cambodia (1.7 million) 
  1975-89: Boat people, Vietnam (250,000) 
  1975-87: civil war in Lebanon (130,000) 
  1975-87: Laos' civil war (184,000) 
  1975-2002: Angolan civil war (500,000) 
  1976-83: Argentina's military regime (20,000) 
  1976-93: Mozambique's civil war (900,000) 
  1976-98: Indonesia-East Timor civil war (600,000) 
  1976-2005: Indonesia-Aceh (GAM) civil war (12,000) 
  1977-92: El Salvador's civil war (75,000) 
  1979: Vietnam-China war (30,000) 
  1979-88: the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan (1.3 million) 
  1980-88: Iraq-Iran war (435,000) 
  1980-92: Sendero Luminoso - Peru's civil war (69,000) 
  1984-: Kurds vs Turkey (35,000) 
  1981-90: Nicaragua vs Contras (60,000) 
  1982-90: Hissene Habre, Chad (40,000) 
  1983-: Sri Lanka's civil war (70,000) 
  1983-2002: Sudanese civil war (2 million) 
  1986-: Indian Kashmir's civil war (60,000) 
  1987-: Palestinian Intifada (4,500) 
  1988-2001: Afghanistan civil war (400,000) 
  1988-2004: Somalia's civil war (550,000) 
  1989-: Liberian civil war (220,000) 
  1989-: Uganda vs Lord's Resistance Army (30,000) 
  1991: Gulf War - large coalition against Iraq to liberate Kuwait (85,000) 
  1991-97: Congo's civil war (800,000) 
  1991-2000: Sierra Leone's civil war (200,000) 
  1991-2009: Russia-Chechnya civil war (200,000) 
  1991-94: Armenia-Azerbaijan war (35,000) 
  1992-96: Tajikstan's civil war war (50,000) 
  1992-96: Yugoslavian wars (260,000) 
  1992-99: Algerian civil war (150,000) 
  1993-97: Congo Brazzaville's civil war (100,000) 
  1993-2005: Burundi's civil war (200,000) 
  1994: Rwanda's civil war (900,000) 
  1995-: Pakistani Sunnis vs Shiites (1,300) 
  1995-: Maoist rebellion in Nepal (12,000) 
  1998-: Congo/Zaire's war - Rwanda and Uganda vs Zimbabwe, Angola and Namibia 
(3.8 million) 
  1998-2000: Ethiopia-Eritrea war (75,000) 
  1999: Kosovo's liberation war - NATO vs Serbia (2,000) 
  2001-: Afghanistan's liberation war - USA & UK vs Taliban (40,000) 
  2001-: Nigeria vs Boko Haram (1700) 
  2002-: Cote d'Ivoire's civil war (1,000) 
  2003-11: Second Iraq-USA war - USA, UK and Australia vs Saddam Hussein's 
regime and Shiite squads and Sunni extremists (160,000) 
  2003-09: Sudan vs JEM/Darfur (300,000) 
  2004-: Sudan vs SPLM & Eritrea (?) 
  2004-: Yemen vs Shiite Muslims (?) 
  2004-: Thailand vs Muslim separatists (3,700) 
  2007-: Pakistan vs PAkistani Taliban (38,000) 
  2012-: Iraq's civil war after the withdrawal of the USA (?) 
  2012-: Syria's civil war (200,000) 

  There are other sources with some different figures
  Love and harmony
  Ernesto Kahan 

  From: Julia Budnikova 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 12:22 PM
  To: Leo Semashko ; gha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; peace-from-harmony@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Cc: Prof. Ernesto Kahan 
  Subject: Re: Discussion of E. Kahan's article

  I am absolutely agrees with Leo! Behind each figure there is responsible for 
victims and the reason, and it is much more important, than figures.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Leo Semashko 
    To: Julia Budnikova ; gha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; 
    Cc: Prof. Ernesto Kahan 
    Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:09 PM
    Subject: Re: Discussion of E. Kahan's article

    Dear Ernesto,

    To the questions that formulated Julia, please, let another one that has 
been widely discussed in the Russian media today. 

    It is a matter of aggressions and wars of the USA in Iraq, Yugoslavia, 
Kosovo, Libya, Afghanistan, etc. in 2000-2013, in which was killed thousands of 
innocent victims: children, women and the elderly. These facts constitute war 
crimes of the U.S. in the 21st century and they flagrantly violate 
international law, the UN Charter and the Declaration of Human Rights. 

    As do you think: could these facts be reflected in your wonderful article 
as USA war crimes of the 21st century? 

    Thanks for your response. 

    With love, best harmony wishes,


    ----- Original Message -----
      From: Julia Budnikova, jb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      To: leo.semashko@xxxxxxxxx
      Sent: 31 марта 2014 г., 14:50:35
      Subject: Discussion of E. Kahan's article

    Dear Ernesto!
    Thank you for your answer. I am sorry for I have not noticed the 
information about labor camps. I see what you mean, but still I want to 
emphasize that some numbers are set too low, even though they are given by UN 
official source. And let me point again at famines (most of them were provoked 
by political reasons) in Povolzhie (Volga region) and other parts of Soviet 
Union which took millions and millions of victims. See at least: 
    Different sources give different numbers but many of them will say that 
only in Great Patriotic War (1941-1945) there were millions of civil victims. 
Berlin Karlshorst Museum gives numbers which comfirm that as well. I don’t 
mention Russian historians, among whom there are some good experts too. Only 
during the Siege of Leningrad the number of civil victims was about 1 million.
    So, in my opinion it would be best to draw some more sources. That will 
offer the advantage of representing a more complete scheme which is extremely 
important in such a serious theme.
    Concerning genocide, of course genocide did take place in Russia (Soviet 
Union), because there was an intended extermination of the best people – those 
of them who could think independently (poets, writers,artists, scientists, 
philosophers, public figures, clergymen and so on and so forth). These measures 
directed at “cutting of the head of the nation” quite conform to those in the 
definition you cite.
    With kind regards
    Yours sincerely,
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Prof. Ernesto Kahan 
    To: Julia Budnikova 
    Cc: Leo Semashko 
    Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 9:55 PM
    Subject: Re: Discussion of E. Kahan's article

    Dear friends Julia Budnikova y Leo Semashko
    I am very satisfied that my article provoke discussion. Actually, this was 
the purpose of it. 
    Not only you said that table 2 is incomplete, I WROTE THAT ...THE PAPER 
    First the table presents “Only in the eleven major events of the 20th 
Century, in which more than 1 million civilians were killed in each” Please 
read it again. I will be not correct to present a table with more that 100 
events, even when every one can see it in the reference I presented from UN 
OFFICIAL SOURCE. If some do not agree with that must complaint to the UN. I 
carefully cites the best recognized source.
    See in the same table that concentration camps were mentioned: Soviet 
forced labor camp systems  without mentioning Ukraine, which is added using the 
sign +
          1932-39 URSS 7 m Stalin Soviet forced labor camp systems + famine in 
    I do not agree that this shoul be called GENOCIDE because this is no in 
accordance with UN General Assembly in 1948. In the present Convention, 
genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in 
whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such : 
Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members 
of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life 
calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly 
transferring children of the group to another group
    Military? Of course I mentioned, see:

          7 million civilians + 10 million military [7]  

    Thanks a lot for your help.
    Best harmony and peace days
    From: Julia Budnikova 
    Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 3:43 PM
    To: ekahan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Cc: Leo Semashko 
    Subject: Re: Discussion of E. Kahan's article
    Dear Ernesto!
    The article gives a precise picture of our civilization. However figures of 
the second chart seem to be incomplete and rather vague. Why are you writing 
about 7 million people who died of starvation in Ukraine without pointing at 
the fact of horrible famine in Volga region? I do not even mention Stalin’s 
concentration camps. That was a large-scale genocide, which touched not just 
Ukraine but all nations of the Soviet Union. And the number of dead Russians 
was much higher than that of ukranians and jews. That is the first thing. The 
second one is I cannot see why you are not citing any data on military deaths 
while the article bears name «War crimes…»? I consider that the article should 
be corrected in some questions before it is issued in an international 
collection of papers otherwise it may be perceived as political conjuncture 
against the background of current  events.
    I wish you success in your work
    Julia Budnikova
    President GHA-Russia
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Leo Semashko 
    To: Julia Budnikova 
    Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:47 PM
    Subject: Re: Статья Кахана для обсуждения
    Dear Julia,

    Спасибо за Ваш небесспорный, но обстоятельный отклик, дающий пищу для 
размышления и уточнений статьи. Это хорошо. 

    Могли бы Вы перевести Ваш отклик на английский и послать его Эрнесто? Это 
было бы замечательно. Он будет удовлетворен любого качества переводом - 
главное, чтобы ваши основные мысли были понятны. Его емайл: Prof. Ernesto Kahan 

    Это будет здорово. Сможете? Спасибо. И ссылку пришлите - это тоже важно для 

    With love, best harmony wishes,


    ----- Original Message -----
      From: Julia Budnikova, jb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      To: leo.semashko@xxxxxxxxx
      Sent: 27 марта 2014 г., 17:55:38
      Subject: Статья Кахана для обсуждения

    Лев Михайлович, статья хорошая, в том смысле, что честно передает весь ужас 
нашей цивилизации. Но цифры во второй таблице совершенно непонятные и неполные. 
Почему Эрнесто пишет о 7 млн. погибших от голода на Украине, но не приводит 
данные по такому же точно голодомору в Поволжье? Я уже не говорю о сталинских 
лагерях. Смерть русских или татар не так эффектна для мирового сообщества как 
смерть украинцев? Но это, тем не менее, был такой же точно геноцид, еще более 
массовый. Ему подверглись все народы Советского Союза, а не одна Украина. Это 
раз. Во-вторых, я не понимаю, почему он не приводит данные о потерях в войнах 
как таковых, если статья назывется "Военные преступления..."? А если он 
сосредотачивается только на мирных жителях, то зачем путать читателя названием? 
Надо переименовать статью. В общем, я считаю, что статья должна быть несколько 
отредактирована, прежде чем попасть в международный сборник, чтобы не выглядеть 
политической коньюнктурой на фоне современных событий. Я не могу проголосовать 
за нее в теком виде.
    А что касается мирной или военной человеческой природы, то есть интересные 
данные ученых, как наш организм на физиологическом уровне сопротивляется 
необходимости кого-то убивать. Только люди с психическими проблемами не 
испытывают проблем при акте убийства, организм нормального человека "бастует" 
вплоть до паралича конечностей. Могу прислать ссылку.
    Всего доброго, всем успехов!
      Юлия Будникова,
    Президент ГСГ-Россия
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Leo Semashko 
    To: Julia Budnikova ; ADOLF SHVEDCHIKOV ; ni-novikova ; 
andrsemashko@xxxxxxxxx ; volnabudushego@xxxxxxxxx ; Erica Lazarova ; Светлана 
Кусковская ; Alex Semashko ; Grigory Tulchinsky ; Oleg Bodnar ; Svetlana 
Vetrova ; borovichi2011@xxxxxxxxxx ; Pit S ; Татьяна Касаткина ; Сергей 
Покровский ; subal1937@xxxxxxxxx ; Елена Бранская ; waitsv@xxxxxxx ; Дмитрий 
Александрович Ивашинцов ; katya_semashko@xxxxxxx ; gskvortsov@xxxxxxxxx ; 
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Гигаури ; succeder@xxxxxxx ; Владимир Иванов ; Дина Назарова ; Dennis Zuev ; 
gym76@xxxxxxxx ; Наталья Иванова ; dolgoshova@xxxxxxxxx ; dir@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; 
Павел Цыпленков ; cutebright_irbees@xxxxxxxxx ; Zau Box ; Aubakir Daurenbek ; 
alla550555@xxxxxxx ; Светлана Соловьянович ; Нина Юдина ; делюкин Дмитрий ; 
Yulia Vinogradova ; R. Kaziyeva ; auezov1940@xxxxxxx ; jas_kazahstan ; Ныгмет 
Жотабаев ; Gulnar Amirova ; Юлия Будникова ; poghosyan.marianna@xxxxxxxxx ; 
vera-papovich@xxxxxxx ; Uraz Baimuratov ; Роксана Садыкова 
    Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 3:33 PM
    Subject: Статья Кахана для обсуждения

    Дорогие друзья!

    Рад послать вам замечательную статью о геноциде и мире в нашу книгу НГМ 
Эрнесто Кахана, Нобелевского лауреата. Извините, что посылаю на английском 
языке - но вы можете легко перевести ее на любом переводчике а Интернете. Она 
знаменательна, будет полезна и интересна для вас, особенно для соавторов нашей 
уникальной книги, - я приглашаю вас к ее обсуждению. Вот мое письмо к нему.

    Дорогой Эрнесто, брат по духу мира из гармонии,

    Большое спасибо за вашу выдающуюся уникальную миротворческую статью! Я 
восхищаюсь ее высшими научными достоинствами: фундаментальностью фактов и 
глубиной философского обобщения вместе с изящным поэтическим сопровождением! Вы 
приводите ужасные факты уничтожения более 200 миллионов людей в войнах 20 века, 
Эта статья производит очень сильное впечатление, и она будет перлом в нашей 
книге НГМ. 

    Вы затронули самый глубокий философский вопрос: какова природа человека – 
мир или война? Прошлая история дает больше фактов того, что человек по природе 
военное существо, которое всегда убивало и будет убивать себе подобных. Но 
многие философы и факты прошлого говорят об обратном. Наша философия, которую 
мы развиваем в нашей книге НГМ, доказывает мирную природу человека, основанную 
на естественной социальной гармонии. Вопрос только в том, что социальная наука 
еще не познала ее. Наша НГМ восполняет этот недостаток и дает научное 
объяснение этой природы в ее социальном геноме, СОЦИОНОМЕ и в ее глобальной 
социальной структуре сферных классов населения, СФЕРОНОВ. 

    Та история, которую мы знаем, это история невежественного в гармонии 
человека, а потому эта история является военной по большей части. Но впереди 
нас ждет более длинная, в миллионы лет, история, которая будет мирной, потому 
что ее будут строить люди, знающие законы глобальной гармонии, которые 
обеспечивают глобальный мир. Мы, ГСГ олицетворяем в нашей Азбуке гармонии и НГМ 
этот пассионарный поворот истории от военной к мирной. Конечно, это только 
первый шаг, за которым последует множество других. Но всякий путь, включая путь 
мирной истории человечества, начинается с первого шага, который сделали и 
делаем мы, ГСГ, который объединяет таких гениальных и преданных миру 
мыслителей, как Эрнесто Кахан и многих других, подобных ему. 

    Мы, ГСГ, олицетворяем в наших книгах и проектах новое, революционное мирное 
мышление, сознательно воплощенное в НГМ. Вы цитируете замечательные слова 
другого гения, Эйнштейна: "We shall require a substantially new manner of 
thinking if mankind is to survive." Который предвидел нас с нашим новым мирным 
тетрарным мышлением, обеспечивающем выживание человечества. Мы первые 
предпринимаем подобную интеллектуальную революцию. Поэтому, мы взяли на себя 
колоссальную историческую ответственность, достойно ответить на которую мы 
можем только солидарной дружелюбной работой. Нас ждут впереди 7 месяцев 
подобной работы, начало которой положил Эрнесто его блистательной статьей. 

    Я приглашаю всех соавторов НГМ высказать ваше мнение об этой статье, что 
поможет, прежде всего каждому из вас, в вашем беспрецедентном интеллектуальном 
участии в НГМ. Наша, ГСГ, революция мышления требует именно такого участия и 
отношения. Позвольте нам начать обсуждение статей для НГМ на этой высокой ноте. 

    С любовью, лучшие пожелания мира из гармонии,

    Лев Семашко,
    Президент ГСГ

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