[geocentrism] Re: penance
- From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:08:50 +1000
There is no way on Earth that we can 'work' for His forgiveness.
[I never said that. True contrition brings instant forgiveness. Penance is
reparation and restitution. plm]
Jack,
But this one will take a bit of contradicting. Some works might cover one sin,
and some a multitude.
James 5.19 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one convert him:
20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of
his way shall save his soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins.
and
1 Peter, 4- 8 But before all things have a constant mutual charity among
yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins.
Philip you and I have been down this road before so there's no point in
resurrecting it again on this forum. Agreed? Jack
Yes Jack ! I was not trying to raise a matter of two faiths or go down that
road...
You asked a personal question and I answered.. I gave both personal and
scriptual reasons. You seemed to give back contradictory scriptural reasons in
opposition. Thats fine.
Such only supports my resolve, or gives me greater justification and reason for
penance. It also justifies my claim to not having the competence to interpret
Scripture alone, but that I require "St. Philip to come up and sit with me."
Lord help me to be more humble.
Any contradiction in interpretation of scripture, is a reasonable cause for
doubt.
When any doubt exists, common sense dictates,
If I err on the side of making unnecessary sacrifice by saying the commended
prayer of Our Lord, or some other charitable action, due to my false
interpretation, then I feel God is not going to punish me for that, as He
indeed favours those who make sacrifices and prayers, and is not prone to
condemn them just because of a mistake. The worst that can happen is I lose
nothing and I gain nothing.
However those who err in favor of taking the easier interpretation of not
offering reparation for their own sins, risk quite a lot. The worst that can
happen is they gain nothing, or lose everything.
I see nothing evil in the principle of thanking God for all the graces we
recieve, even though they are given freely without the asking, and likewise I
see no evil in making restitution or paying debts of honour, whether to man or
God, with or without the asking.
What do you think of people offering prayers to God and doing other good works
in reparation for the sins others commit against His name? Do you deny that God
can take these little sacrifices, and in return favor another by giving a
special grace to someone to see the truth?
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Lewis
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 7:13 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: penance
Dear Philip,
No I'm not sorry, I welcome your reply.
1 Asking God to forgive our sins is acknowledging that He did actually did
die for us. He died for everyone (all are sinners) and His forgiveness is for
all of those who choose to accept it.
2 Faith without works is dead and so are works without faith.
A) To be Christians firstly we need faith but it must be backed up by
practical Christian living (works).
B) Our works will be tested as if by fire but even if they are all
burned up and counted as loss we ourselves will not lose, our salvation.
C) Being repentant does not mean practising self mortification
(penance).
It's quite simple really. Jesus died for us to pay for our sins and extends
His grace of forgiveness to all who are willing to accept it. All that is
required of us is to have a heartfelt sorrow for sinning and repent by
admitting it and asking for his forgiveness. There is no way on Earth that we
can 'work' for His forgiveness.I never said that. True contrition brings
instant forgiveness. Penance is reparation and restitution.
The R.C. interpretation of scripture is excruciating to say the least. Philip
you and I have been down this road before so there's no point in resurrecting
it again on this forum. Agreed?
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: philip madsen
To: geocentrism list
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 1:32 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] penance
You are going to be sorry you asked that Jack.
But I do not NEED to do penance. I believe in reparation.. If I steal
something, how could I be truely forgiven if I do not return what was stolen?
If I consume what I stole, or the person to whom I owed it was not available,
how then can I make restitution? Then again is it all about goods? I could
steal (defame) your good name..or Gods.
Jesus told us how to Pray. We must ask, "forgive us our trespasses...."
Why would he ask us to do that if He has already forgiven us and made our
restitution for us?
Why does He insist we must "take up our Cross and follow him? " If His was
sufficient.
Why does he ask us to give up our lives for others as He has done.?
12 This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his
friends. 14 You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you.
I think that is a start in giving some reason for penance as a part of
repentance.
repentant adjective FORMAL
feeling sorry for something that you have done.
Should not this "feeling" be confirmed in action? Restitution or reparation
of some sort, when we offend against our neighbour? Thats what penance is.
Sorrow as a "feeling" without action has little value.
With a little poetic licence I shew the principle here
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith,(sorrow) and I have works. Shew
me thy faith ( sorrow) without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith
(sorrow) . 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils
also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith
(sorrow) without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by
works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou that faith did
cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the
scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to
him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by
works a man is justified, and not by faith only?
And He said: Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them who trespass
against us...
We expect restitution from our debtors, one way or another as compensation.
A "feeling" spoken as "I'm sorry" cannot be assessed as in good faith without
some action or demonstration .
Why should God be intitled to any less when our offence is against Him?
34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid
all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not
every one his brother from your hearts.
So it is obvious to me, as the heart cannot be ascertained as to its
perfect contrition, a debt must still be paid....and to God, it will be in
torture and suffering.
Philip.
Of course that last points to Purgatory...There is an excellent proof for
that .. but not yet..
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Lewis
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: depression
Dear Phil,
Why do you feel you need to do a 'penance'? There isn't anything you can
personally do to assuage your sins. That's why Jesus went to the cross, he did
it for us. Repent yes but penance is not necessary.
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: philip madsen
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:13 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] depression
"suffer to some extent from depression"
Depression is an imaginary desease some men catch from women.. For a
cure it is only necessary for a man to imagine he has not got it, and have
another beer.
The only occasion I get depressed is when I have sinned against God.
And a simple honest apology with some prayers for penance quickly fixes that..
Philip.
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