[geocentrism] Re: engrossing
- From: "Philip" <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:45:04 +1000
Well done Robert. I hope the lazy types did scroll quickly to your comments at
the end. To wit I throw in my 2 bits, not to confuse, but to substantiate my
claim that the newchurch dares not challenge Ex Cathedra, but rather writes in
a weak and obviously ambiguous manner, nothing like the really true legal
documents of the past,
(is that a sign of educational standards in these the modern times) .
As evidenced by your mention in the conclusion, which I paste here. Let the
indifferentists or the radical traditionalists find any loophole in documents
from times when education was true.
.....Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference
what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other
extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the
Catholic Church, one will be damned.
Pax Christi semper, Robert.
Thanks for the input ,
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Bennett
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 11:34 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
I can be only fallible or infallible
I state that I am fallible.
But that means I can be in error, including in my statement above.
So I could be infallible, when I say I am fallible.
http://www.catholic-defense.com/dominus.htm
DOMINUS IESUS
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DECLARATION
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH
...Furthermore, the salvific action of Jesus Christ, with and through his
Spirit, extends beyond the visible boundaries of the Church to all humanity.
Speaking of the paschal mystery, in which Christ even now associates the
believer to himself in a living manner in the Spirit and gives him the hope of
resurrection, the Council states: "All this holds true not only for Christians
but also for all men of good will in whose hearts grace is active invisibly.
For since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and
the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to
all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the
paschal mystery".
........Hence, the connection is clear between the salvific mystery of the
Incarnate Word and that of the Spirit, who actualizes the salvific efficacy of
the Son made man in the lives of all people, called by God to a single goal,
both those who historically preceded the Word made man, and those who live
after his coming in history: the Spirit of the Father, bestowed abundantly by
the Son, is the animator of all (cf. Jn 3:34
...........There is only one salvific economy of the One and Triune God,
realized in the mystery of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son
of God, actualized with the cooperation of the Holy Spirit, and extended in its
salvific value to all humanity and to the entire universe: "No one, therefore,
can enter into communion with God except through Christ, by the working of the
Holy Spirit".41
.....In the New Testament, the universal salvific will of God is closely
connected to the sole mediation of Christ: "[God] desires all men to be saved
and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God; there is also
one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a
ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6).
........From the beginning, the community of believers has recognized in
Jesus a salvific value such that he alone, as Son of God made man, crucified
and risen, by the mission received from the Father and in the power of the Holy
Spirit, bestows revelation (cf. Mt 11:27) and divine life (cf. Jn 1:12;
5:25-26; 17:2) to all humanity and to every person.
..... Second Vatican Council teaches: "The Word of God, through whom all
things were made, was made flesh, so that as perfect man he could save all men
and sum up all things in himself.
......these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe
they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and
importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not
refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy
from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church".
....Likewise, one may not separate the kingdom [0f God] from the Church. It
is true that the Church is not an end unto herself, since she is ordered toward
the kingdom of God, of which she is the seed, sign and instrument
.....Above all else, it must be firmly believed that "the Church, a pilgrim
now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and
the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.
......This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God
(cf. 1 Tim 2:4); "it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely,
the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity
of the Church for this salvation".
......For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church,
"salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a
mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the
Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual
and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his
sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit";81 it has a relationship with
the Church, which "according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the
mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit".
...... With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God - which is
always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship
to the Church - comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council
limited itself to the statement that God bestows it "in ways known to
himself".83 ...... However, from what has been stated above about the
mediation of Jesus Christ and the "unique and special relationship"84 which the
Church has with the kingdom of God among men - which in substance is the
universal kingdom of Christ the Saviour - it is clear that it would be contrary
to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those
constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or
substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with
the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.
........One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex
opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments.88
Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend
on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle
to salvation.89
22. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the
Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf.
Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which
the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules
out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism "characterized by a
religious relativism which leads to the belief that 'one religion is as good as
another'".91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive
divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a
gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have
the fullness of the means of salvation.92 However, "all the children of the
Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not
from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in
thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but
they shall be more severely judged".93 One understands then that, following the
Lord's command (cf. Mt 28:19-20) and as a requirement of her love for all
people, the Church "proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail,
Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6). In him, in whom God
reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2 Cor 5:18-19), men find the fullness of
their religious life".94
......."Indeed, God 'desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of
the truth' (1 Tim 2:4); that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through
the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the
promptings of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the
Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their
desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God's universal
plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary".
......
The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience of June 16, 2000, granted
to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the
Faith, with sure knowledge and by his apostolic authority, ratified and
confirmed this Declaration, adopted in Plenary Session and ordered its
publication.
Rome, from the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,
August 6, 2000, the Feast of the Transfiguration of the Lord.
Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect
............
If Jesus is God, and He left us the Catholic Church as His instrument of
salvation on earth, then we cannot of ourselves create some other means of
salvation than the one God gave us. In other words, we can't say to God:
"Thanks for your plan, but I'll do it my own way." What Vatican II had to say
on the subject was that some have a saving communion with the Church even if
they don't have an intellectual understanding of such. In other words, they
are members of the Church, albeit in an imperfect way, but are not within the
visible confines of the Church.
Vatican II said that if a person is, through no fault of their own, ignorant
of the fact that the Catholic Church is the true Church, such a person may
attain salvation although they are in an impoverished situation. A person who
knows the Catholic Church is true and refuses to embrace the Catholic faith
would be accountable for the refusal of God's plan of salvation.
In short, God doesn't hold us accountable for what we are innocently ignorant
of. He will hold us accountable if we know and refuse, or purposely choose to
deny, the light given us and remain in ignorance.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
.....Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference
what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other
extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the
Catholic Church, one will be damned.
Pax Christi semper,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Niemann, Nicholas K.
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 11:57 AM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
Robert,
Will you tell us what is the other "way to salvation", and tell us if this
is your opinion or if you are speaking without the possibility of error, and if
so, how you know that you are infallible on the topic.
Regards,
Nick.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robert Bennett [mailto:robert.bennett@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:25 AM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
Well, we will miss the daily epistles of Phillip to the geocentrists....
The confusion here is rooted in not distinguishing the Church Christ
founded, which has the fullness of salvific truth, but not an exclusive right
to it.......from the kingdom of God, as described in NT parables.
The Catholic Church, because it is one, holy, catholic and apostolic,
because it has the seven sacraments to bestow grace on its members, because
Jesus is its head, is the best, but not only, way to salvation. The Church is
a mix of saints and sinners, like the rest of mankind. Who is saint and who is
sinner? ....well, that changes daily. Here comes everybody!
Why does the Catholic church stir up such aggressive resistance from the
world, when it seeks nothing that the world offers? Why the obstinate and
fanatic crusade by evolutionists and relativists and abortionists and
modernists to impose their secular science and amorality on all its members?
Why the strident response in this "geocentric?" forum to those who believe
they have found the truth and embrace it?
Because we all have an intellect that always seeks the Truth and a will
that seeks the Good, with a conscience that attempts to resolve the two when
conflicted.
Herein is the conflict: We seek our own lifestyle - a life of comfort here
on earth. But life is not a reward - it's a test, a test of fidelity and
humility, of childlike innocence and obedience to righteous divine authority.
Unless you become like little children, you CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF
GOD.
When our ever-active conscience detects a threat to our lifestyle, we react
instinctively to eliminate the challenge. As long as the Church teaches the
message above, it will be seen as a threat by our conscience, so the Church
must be suppressed or eliminated from our vision.
Let the responses show where the truth lies.
Pax Christi,
Robert
.
-----Original Message-----
From: geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Philip
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 1:34 AM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] engrossing
I cant get out of it..... Its too engrossing ..Nick Allen Ja Neville...
However in these coming three days I'm out of my house and a vagabond .
with less access to you all.
I have my life of science in a book called Diary of a Mad professor..
I have decided to release to the world so that none can patent it one of
what is to my mind a very practical idea which makes fun of modern
slipstreaming, and abolishes the need for it, and will bring the electric car
back into focus .
Tomorrow.
Phil
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