[geocentrism] Re: engrossing
- From: j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:54:02 -0700 (PDT)
Nick,
I read it again and it is clearly saying salvation is possible without being in
the catholic church - therefore according to what you presented, the current
pope should have been considered a heritic by all true catholics. Otherwise,
what is the point of the entire piece?
I cannot look at the catholic church as anything that you claim because there
is no scriptural basis for doing so. And on top of that there is plenty of
scripture against it. So until you address any of those things, which you
can't, you are just a snake-oil salesmen. Your main arguement being akin to
"buy what I sell or you will die". Scare tactics are for those on weak ground
The reliable authority is the bible and the reliable guide is the holy spirit
and Jesus is the salvation.
All those who believe and trust in Jesus are saved.
All those who are saved are saints.
All saved people are Jesus' representatives on earth.
All saved people form the body of Jesus' church.
These are all simple biblical principles that catholicism misses. Show me the
verses that prove me wrong and you right. One or two at a time please
JA
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
JA,
Yes, the scriptures demonstrate the basis and authority for Catholicism.
I have not demonstrated the current Pope is a heretic. I think DI can be read
in ways that can be misleading. For example, what does the first sentence of
what you show below really mean. It doesn't say you can be saved if you die
outside the Catholic Church.
Merely because you fail to see Jesus' wisdom and truth in the Catholic writings
doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you don't see it or understand it.
Fortunately, Jesus gave us a reliable authority we can look to on earth for an
answer. God speaks through the Catholic Church. View the Church as His
mouthpiece if that helps you conceptually.
Regards,
Nick.
---------------------------------
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:50 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
Nick,
I take it then that the statement in question is not official and infallible.I
appreciate the correction. I wonder how he could be elected Pope being such a
heretic as you have amply demonstrated?
I fail to see Jesus' wisdom and truth in anything you quoted from catholic
writings and seems to be quite plainly at odds with all the scriptures. Do you
claim scripture as the basis and authority for catholicism?
JA
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
JA,
Thank you for the follow up.
Official Ex Cathedra Catholic Church teaching says the following:
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none
of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews
and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they
will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels,
unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the
unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity
can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can
receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other
works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let
his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for
the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the
unity of the Catholic Church."& nbsp; Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino,
1441.
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at
all can be saved." Pope Innocent III, 4th Lateran Council, 1215.
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the
salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." Pope
Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.
"If anyone shall say that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for
salvation: let him be anathema." Canon 5, Council of Trent.
"If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism,
and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ:'Unless a man be born
again of water and the Holy Spirit' (John 3:5) are distorted into some sort of
metaphor: let him be anathema." Canon 2, Council of Trent.
"Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy
Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5.
I'm familiar with Dominus Iesus issued by then Cardinal Ratzinger. What I've
quoted above is Ex Cathedra "infallible" teachings ("infantile" or "insane" for
Neville). Hunt for some loophole or liberal interpretation of these at your
own risk. These reflect Jesus "wisdom and truth", so your search is over,
should you care to admit it.
No apology from me is needed. I've been speaking in the objective order. As
I've said, only God can judge souls. That doesn't keep us from teaching what
He taught us, and indeed as Christians (i.e. Catholics) we have an obligation
to do so.
Regards,
Nick.
---------------------------------
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 12:03 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
Nick, did you miss the first line in the declaration below, not to mention
several paragraphs further below. Or was that not an official catholic thing?
Don't you owe me and several others an appology for telling us we are going to
hell even though we accept Jesus as our savior and seek his wisdom and truth as
best we can? And don't you owe your faith and your church a trip to the
confessional to confess your multiple sins of judging other men's souls?
JA
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Right.
So it's a good thing God told us who He'd make infallible on matters of faith
and morals.
Regards,
Nick.
---------------------------------
From: Robert Bennett [mailto:robert.bennett@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:35 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
I can be only fallible or infallible
I state that I am fallible.
But that means I can be in error, including in my statement above.
So I could be infallible, when I say I am fallible.
http://www.catholic-defense.com/dominus.htm
DOMINUS IESUS
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DECLARATION
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH
...Furthermore, the salvific action of Jesus Christ, with and through his
Spirit, extends beyond the visible boundaries of the Church to all humanity.
Speaking of the paschal mystery, in which Christ even now associates the
believer to himself in a living manner in the Spirit and gives him the hope of
resurrection, the Council states: ?All this holds true not only for Christians
but also for all men of good will in whose hearts grace is active invisibly.
For since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and
the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to
all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the
paschal mystery?.
........Hence, the connection is clear between the salvific mystery of the
Incarnate Word and that of the Spirit, who actualizes the salvific efficacy of
the Son made man in the lives of all people, called by God to a single goal,
both those who historically preceded the Word made man, and those who live
after his coming in history: the Spirit of the Father, bestowed abundantly by
the Son, is the animator of all (cf. Jn 3:34
...........There is only one salvific economy of the One and Triune God,
realized in the mystery of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son
of God, actualized with the cooperation of the Holy Spirit, and extended in its
salvific value to all humanity and to the entire universe: ?No one, therefore,
can enter into communion with God except through Christ, by the working of the
Holy Spirit?.41
.....In the New Testament, the universal salvific will of God is closely
connected to the sole mediation of Christ: ?[God] desires all men to be saved
and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God; there is also
one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a
ransom for all? (1 Tim 2:4-6).
........From the beginning, the community of believers has recognized in Jesus
a salvific value such that he alone, as Son of God made man, crucified and
risen, by the mission received from the Father and in the power of the Holy
Spirit, bestows revelation (cf. Mt 11:27) and divine life (cf. Jn 1:12;
5:25-26; 17:2) to all humanity and to every person.
..... Second Vatican Council teaches: ?The Word of God, through whom all things
were made, was made flesh, so that as perfect man he could save all men and sum
up all things in himself.
......these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they
suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and
importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not
refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy
from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church?.
....Likewise, one may not separate the kingdom [0f God] from the Church. It is
true that the Church is not an end unto herself, since she is ordered toward
the kingdom of God, of which she is the seed, sign and instrument
.....Above all else, it must be firmly believed that ?the Church, a pilgrim now
on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the
way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.
......This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God
(cf. 1 Tim 2:4); ?it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely,
the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity
of the Church for this salvation?.
......For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church,
?salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a
mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the
Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual
and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his
sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit?;81 it has a relationship with
the Church, which ?according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the
mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit?.
...... With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God ? which is
always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship
to the Church ? comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council
limited itself to the statement that God bestows it ?in ways known to
himself?.83 ...... However, from what has been stated above about the
mediation of Jesus Christ and the ?unique and special relationship?84 which the
Church has with the ki ngdom of God among men ? which in substance is the
universal kingdom of Christ the Saviour ? it is clear that it would be contrary
to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those
constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or
substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with
the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.
........One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere
operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments.88
Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend
on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle
to salvation.89
22. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the
Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf.
Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which
the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules
out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism ?characterized by a
religious relativism which leads to the belief that ?one religion is as good as
another'?.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive
divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a
gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have
the fullness of the means of salvation.92 However, ?all the children of the
Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not
from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in
thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they n
ot be
saved, but they shall be more severely judged?.93 One understands then that,
following the Lord's command (cf. Mt 28:19-20) and as a requirement of her love
for all people, the Churc h ?proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without
fail, Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6). In him, in whom
God reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2 Cor 5:18-19), men find the fullness
of their religious life?.94
.......?Indeed, God ?desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of
the truth' (1 Tim 2:4); that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through
the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the
promptings of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the
Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their
desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God's universal
plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary?.
......
The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience of June 16, 2000, granted
to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the
Faith, with sure knowledge and by his apostolic authority, ratified and
confirmed this Declaration, adopted in Plenary Session and ordered its
publication. Rome, from the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the
Faith, August 6, 2000, the Feast of the Transfiguration of the Lord. Joseph
Card. Ratzinger
Prefect ............If Jesus is God, and He left us the Catholic Church as His
instrument of salvation on earth, then we cannot of ourselves create some other
means of salvation than the one God gave us. In other words, we can?t say to
God: ?Thanks for your plan, but I?ll do it my own way.? What Vatican II had
to say on the subject was that some have a saving communion with the Church
even if they don?t have an intellectual understanding of such. In other words,
they are members of the Church, albeit in an imperfect way, but are not within
the visible confines of the Church. Vatican II said that if a person is,
through no fault of their own, ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is
the true Church, such a person may attain salvation although they are in an
impoverished situation. A person who knows the Catholic Church is true and
refuses to embrace the Catholic faith would be accountable for the refusal of
God?s plan of salvation. In short, God doesn?t hold us
accountable for what we are innocently ignorant of. He will hold us
accountable if we know and refuse, or purposely choose to deny, the light given
us and remain in ignorance.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp.....Indifferentists,
going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one
belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim
that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one
will be damned.
Pax Christi semper,Robert -----Original Message-----
From: geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Niemann, Nicholas K.
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 11:57 AM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
Robert,
Will you tell us what is the other "way to salvation", and tell us if this is
your opinion or if you are speaking without the possibility of error, and if
so, how you know that you are infallible on the topic.
Regards,
Nick.
---------------------------------
From: Robert Bennett [mailto:robert.bennett@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:25 AM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
Well, we will miss the daily epistles of Phillip to the geocentrists....
The confusion here is rooted in not distinguishing the Church Christ founded,
which has the fullness of salvific truth, but not an exclusive right to
it.......from the kingdom of God, as described in NT parables.
The Catholic Church, because it is one, holy, catholic and apostolic, because
it has the seven sacraments to bestow grace on its members, because Jesus is
its head, is the best, but not only, way to salvation. The Church is a mix of
saints and sinners, like the rest of mankind. Who is saint and who is sinner?
....well, that changes daily. Here comes everybody!
Why does the Catholic church stir up such aggressive resistance from the world,
when it seeks nothing that the world offers? Why the obstinate and fanatic
crusade by evolutionists and relativists and abortionists and modernists to
impose their secular science and amorality on all its members?
Why the strident response in this "geocentric?" forum to those who believe they
have found the truth and embrace it?
Because we all have an intellect that always seeks the Truth and a will that
seeks the Good, with a conscience that attempts to resolve the two when
conflicted.
Herein is the conflict: We seek our own lifestyle - a life of comfort here on
earth. But life is not a reward - it's a test, a test of fidelity and
humility, of childlike innocence and obedience to righteous divine authority.
Unless you become like little children, you CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
When our ever-active conscience detects a threat to our lifestyle, we react
instinctively to eliminate the challenge. As long as the Church teaches the
message above, it will be seen as a threat by our conscience, so the Church
must be suppressed or eliminated from our vision.
Let the responses show where the truth lies.
Pax Christi,
Robert
.
-----Original Message-----
From: geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Philip
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 1:34 AM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] engrossing
I cant get out of it..... Its too engrossing ..Nick Allen Ja Neville...
However in these coming three days I'm out of my house and a vagabond . with
less access to you all.
I have my life of science in a book called Diary of a Mad professor..
I have decided to release to the world so that none can patent it one of what
is to my mind a very practical idea which makes fun of modern slipstreaming,
and abolishes the need for it, and will bring the electric car back into focus .
Tomorrow.
Phil
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