"neville, first: ...................." Wayne.. Ok that got Neville out of the way... Whose next? (grin) Phil. But I think you got a point here as regard the Jews. I think there are good jews and bad jews.. Obviously the good guys are from David as shown in Luke, whom Jesus selected, and those who followed him. When Jesus was lost in the temple, He was with friends obviously.. The bad jews were those who followed contrary cults among the Pharisees .. And of course there is always the problem of transcribing what is meant in middle english language into todays lingo. What they meant by jew.. well what they meant by almost anything.. Even my mothers 1930's english is far from mine or the worlds today. I tried to re-read Treasure Island a year or so ago.. I couldn't hack it.. And as regard Nevilles view, perhaps this is from earlier posts before your time, but he has ,as I think any sensitive person would have, grave reservations about the authenticity of a merciful God who would keep a soul or person alive and conscious FOREVER and burn and torture everypart of his being without pause, without pause forever.. As Jesus said, it would have been better that that man had never been born, ..... and presumably billions more with him. Unfortunately for me, the evidential support is overwhelmingly on Gods side in support of Hell. Neville choses to say this type of God is a Devil... I'm not game to do that.. As the disciple said, when Jesus asked, "Will you also walk away, " "Lord to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. " But I still cannot imagine a happiness in Heaven of any sort whilst the great majority of my brothers and sisters , the entire human race, no matter how bad their temporary distorted lives were, are burning FOREVER. Keep in mind, they were born EVIL.. Conceived in sin. Without the magic words of baptism, they burn for ever. thats the orthodox dogma anyway.. Maybe Lucifer won, and took over.. Gasp! Heresy!.. Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 8:07 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction greetings all. It is a priviledge to be a part of this forum. forgive me, but I'm going to break my silence with an earful right off the bat... neville, first: to be quite honest I don't see how you can speak so confidently about this character you call the "devil", when you reject the one document of authority that establishes credible evidence for his existence? second: if we're "going to decide what to believe and what to deny" based upon our own personal experience and ethical judgement (or racial preference?) , if we're the ones setting the standards, if we're the one's from which we're going to draw our own absolutes in this life (basically the same position as humanists by the way) then who is basically "God" in this scenerio? (i would submit that its us?) Now if somone is going to set themselves up as their own independent judge of truth and righteousness, then I want to put their life under a microscope and see how they walk, when no one's watching. If they're going to be the standard for good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, then I say, "Please, show me what righteousness looks like..." "Show me the money" as a popular American film was said. Now perhaps they may not participate in anything openly malicious and wicked (like cheating on your wife, or working for George Double-U, or pumping your neighbor's cat, or w/e it is that seems to float their boat when they're seeking out their fleshly desires), but I'm willing to bet that a thorough examination of their heart is going to reveal some things that don't look so "righteous"... I'd like to catch of whiff of the hatred and pride that's in their heart. The selfishness and arrogance and envy that is contained in those hidden places of the heart. The apostle paul sums up this thing very nicely in Romans 2:21 "You therefore who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one should not steal, do you steal? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law, through your breaking the law, do you dishonor God?" "You who accuse the Word of God as speaking untruths, do you yourself speak wickedness?" (my own "personal" interpolation there ) and if we back up to verses 3,5 "And do you suppose this o man, when you pass judgement upon those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgement of God? ...But because of your stubbornness and unrepentent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God, WHO WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS..." Third, since we're putting the morality and judgement of the God of the bible on trial here, allow me to throw something out there in His defense. In case one wasn't aware, those "poor and helpless" nations of the land of Canaan (the "promised land") whom the Jews conquered and drove out, weren't exactly a shining example of righteousness themselves. In recent years, secular archaeology has largely confirmed what the bible already told us: and that's the fact that these people were wicked. How can I say that? Well, for starters, these people worshipped deities like "Molech", who is referenced several times in the Old Testament. Molech, in case you weren't aware, was a deity that demanded blood from his subjects (although I must admit Yahweh did as well). But Molech didn't demand just any blood by the way (I'm afraid the blood of bulls and calves wasn't good enough for this 'beacon of goodness'). Nope, these people burned their own children "in the fire", as the scriptures and secular history now confirm. and that's just one example of the caliber of "good deeds" that these nations participated in daily. Now, one could easily argue that the Israelites themselves weren't exactly a shining example of righteousness at this point either, or throughout much of their storied history after that, but thats the whole point! One of the things God was clearly doing in those days was "carving out a people for his own possession" (Deuteronomy 7 explains this nicely). God took for himself a nation from within another nation, to make them his own. To be a shepherd, and yes a father to them. To teach them the difference between good and evil, right and wrong, etc. TO SET THE STANDARD.. TO GIVE THE WORLD AN ABSOLUTE(s)... To make his name known among the nations. Now the fact that the Jews more often than not did not respond appropriately to God's "parenting skills" by no means indicates that God the Father needs to take some parenting classes from the American or British government, no sir! (more on that another time, suffice it to say that God does in fact raise Good kids, its just that the bad eggs seem to get all the attention in secular history. which reminds me, if we understand that "science" is untrustworthy, what makes us thing that "history" (falsely so called?) is any better? I prefer "HIS-story" Fourth, if Jesus' statements in the New Testament are going to be referenced as a source of "truth" that opens our eyes, then let's play fair. John 8:44 and the "you are of your father the devil" statement is in context of verse 13, which gives us a little clue as to who in particular Jesus was probably addressing. Although again I will admit the nation as a whole was largely wicked as well. but they are no different than every nation that has been raised up under heaven before and since then (excluding the nation of the faithful of course [Hebrews 12:22-24]) Furthermore, the same church as referenced above in Hebrews is addressed to by the Apostle John in 1 John 3:4-10 and are told that the reality of life is that anyone who practices sin is of their father, the devil. But back to Jesus who we seem to be appealing to as a credible source of truth and goodness, how about these memorable gems: Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus tells the disciples to avoid the gentiles and the samaritans altogether! Matthew 15:21-28 In this scene Jesus basically likens a Canaanite woman to a dog! (although He end up granting her request, btw) and how can I forget this one: John 4:22 "...we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews." Also, if anyone is interested, Romans 3:1-2, Romans 9:3-5, as well as Ephesians 2:11-12 clearly shows that even the beloved apostle paul (whom usually is also widely esteemed among those who aren't too fond of today's jews) understood that the Old Testament jews were a privileged bunch that God himself had taken under his wing. Now, we may not like what the descendents of those ancient jews have become and what they represent today, but that does not give us any credible moral, historical, or intellectual grounds for rejecting the whole of scripture (bible) as a reliable document of authority. Furthermore, if the "judaism" that was referenced in the following statement "Judaism was created out of stolen Egyptian beliefs" has to do specifically with the God of the Old Testament, I would like to see actual "evidence" produced for this. Last, but not least, the "lying pen of the scribes" can largely be proven to be a baseless accusation as well. It's hardly an original criticism of the bible, and one that the bible has successfully withstood for hundreds of years now. If anyone actually researches the textual tradition of the transmission of the Old Testament canon, one will clearly see an abundance of evidence that those scriptures have passed on down to us in a remarkably unmolested and pristine condition. I would be happy to share this "evidence" with anyone who is interested. Sorry about the short novel as my first post, but this is "how we roll" as my hip-hop friends here in the states would say... good day mates... wayne Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:39:00 -0800From: njones@xxxxxxxxx Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:46:25 +1000 I don't know -- but I'll move on now. With respect to all, John Hey John... Hope you are not moving on er off .. the list that is.. I'm not finished with ya yet! Grin.. You said, So it's significant that Neville appears to believe little of what the bible says, I don't really believe that... not at all.. All he has done is shown an open ness to what it all means.. Something everybody wants.. right Neville? Thats putting honesty above conviction... something a lot of scientists will not do. Phil Well, as a very clever French professor I know used to say, whenever anyone asked him an awkward question, "you are right, and you are not right." The most important and significant thing for me to realize about the Bible was when I clearly saw that the Jews are not God's 'chosen people'. Far from it. Yet this was there, before my nose, all the time: "Ye are of your father, the Devil, and the works of your father ye will do, for he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning." This is a truth and it definitely set me free. In fact, Phil, you were a member of this forum in the days when I would ban someone if they insulted the Jews. The truth opened my eyes not only to exactly what is going on in this sick and depraved world, but to the "lying pen of the scribes" and the "yeast of the Pharisees." Only recently have I discovered that Judaism was created out of stolen Egyptian beliefs in order to give a wandering bunch of liars and deceivers some form of credence. There are truths in the Bible, but where I differ from you and John is that I see that these truths are intertwined with lies and deceit. directed by, ... well, who is the master of deceit? So, and in answer now to John's question, I would say that 'moved' (in, off the top of my head, Ps. 93:1, 96:10, 1 Ch. 16:?) means to physically, spatially move, and that this scripture is true. This, actually, gives you both a good idea of my position, inasmuch as I now deny Joshua's 'long day', not because of the Sun and Moon being told to stand still, but because it labels God as the patsie (the past is the key to the present). Such a bloodthirsty character could only be the Devil. This is how I decide what to believe and what to deny. The Jews either engaged in this wanton carnage because they revel in it, or because the Devil instructed them, or both. Hence, you and John will still see quotes from the Bible on my web site, but they will never be of the Joshua's 'long rampage of blood and gore' type. Best wishes, Neville. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Roodt To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 2:55 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction :-) no problem, Phil. And, no, I am not a clever scholar. We're like a company of soldiers all marching to the beat of the drum in our own heads, and each of us loudly protesting that we're the only one in step. But even though we should probably end this discussion, I see no reason to apologise to this forum. Wasn't it the Scripture that caused us to question the current model of the Universe? Even though we had no scientific proof, we were confident that the Bible held a contrary view, and we were inclined to believe it. In fact, Neville's website initially quoted the Scriptures that indicated that the Earth was fixed and could not be moved. I asked the question ages ago whether or not the word 'moved' meant a physical movement as opposed to: "my heart is steadfast and will not be moved", or "I was moved to tears" etc. No one answered it. But I have watched the debates to see if the question would be answered anyway. So it's significant that Neville appears to believe little of what the bible says, and that you and I (and others) can differ so much in our interpretation of what the bible says. Does it really matter to us whether or not we rotate and orbit or just stand still? What matters is that there is an apparent discrepancy between what Science says and what we believe the Bible says. At least that's how it appeared when I joined this forum. Maybe you've all moved beyond that and I haven't. My only concern is: "what is the truth?" We both love the truth; we read the same Scriptures; and we pray to the same God for understanding on these matters and others far more important than whether the Earth moves or not. How then can we be so far apart? I don't know -- but I'll move on now. With respect to all, John On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 1:48 PM, philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Peter came in with some biblical comments that seemed to deny Jesus was God. along with other, Therefore I can answer those points together with my response to Johns below. inserted in brown.. Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Roodt To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction Phil, Catholics overlook one glaring truth. JESUS EXISTED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN!! In what possible sense could Mary be his mother in Heaven?!? A Mystery perhaps but Elizabeth did say it.. 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Some Catholics may overlook it ! but they are not "clever scientists" like myself, and would hardly be expected to comprehend the complexities of time space and eternity. Thats why Heaven is called a place of many mansions! I have already asked John using this same quotation , did he understand the difference. "Before Abraham was born, I AM". Time is temporal or temporary.. Eternity in temporal terms is compared to an everpresent "now" A mystery to 3D human brains, but fully experienced in the next world. " We pray ....." Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be..." beginning = ever shall be.. What has Mary to do with Him? 46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is his name. Jesus entered this world for a purpose ... He wasn't created here the way we are. He already existed. He is no-one's Son but God's alone. Mary is NOT the mother of God. And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? She is not even the mother of Jesus in glory -- how could she be? You've said it yourself, Catholics make "Graven images of things in Heaven and Earth and pay them homage"... how much more evidence must you see of pagan worship before your eyes are opened and you see the truth? You read into my words a thing I did not say. And it is off subject, unless you are only interested in Catholic bashing.. I am not into protestant bashing, and will not be drawn into such a slanging match here. Sufficient to say, no catholic may pay homage to images or things. Respect absolutely, as I would hope you give to the Holy Book, lest someone commit sacrilege with it. You could not see, or else ignored my accent on humility in all things as promoted by Mary. The Bible is an incredible work. Consider how God allows sinful men to be the writers of His Word. Even Jesus did not commit anything to writing -- He knows that He can get man to write down His eternal and perfect truths. Even though they are weaved into the fabric of human existence -- interlaced with the stories of sinful human lives. It is truly amazing. How awesome, and wise, and great is our God. The depth of His Wisdom is unfathomable. Thus here may I take the quote Peter used and His comment.. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.' So, unless a doctrine such as Mary veneration is in the Bible, it is a doctrine of men. Peter. "Consider how God allows sinful men to be the writers of His Word. Even Jesus did not commit anything to writing -- He knows that He can get man to write down His eternal and perfect truths" And if you did not hear it from His mouth, how can you be absolutely sure the Bible is not a collection of the doctrines of men! Jesus selected 12, many more than the few of the testaments. Yet it was the men who followed centuries later who decided to collect and authorise the Books into a canonised NT of Scripture. "Doctrines of men " As are the Quran or the Book of Mormon!.... They cannot authorise themselves.. Mary is just a blessed part of the fabric through which God wove His plan for salvation. Jesus himself said that no-one born of woman was greater than John the Baptist -- not even Mary. How could she be exalted above even John the Baptist? These issues are your preferred interpretation. If you are indeed a clever scholar then I must weigh your opinion against other clever scholars who also are very well educated men. And after that, then one must wonder which if any has the guidance of the Holy Ghost. That the most intelligent of scholars in the world are unable to find consensus on so many issues raised by Bible study, is fair evidence to show how in-appropriate is the idea that the Bible Alone suffices unto salvation. Thanks for efforts to explain your position, but I think you need to step back and re-look at what you believe. Be sure I believe nothing blindly. I said above, "And after that, then one must wonder which if any has the guidance of the Holy Ghost. " If it was on scholarship alone, I would have no faith. I firmly believe that those men whose apostolic succession is proven by the historical continuity of "laying of the hands" in ceremonial sacramental ordination all the way back to the Apostles, and to Christ Himself are the most logical group whose scholarship would be guided by the Holy Ghost; that same group of men who collected and authorised the Holy Scripture and protected it throughout the centuries. I agree, we have exhausted the subject here. Its been an enjoyable discussion. My Prayers as always are with you and all the members of the group. Many thanks to Neville for his tolerance and for allowing us to proceed. Regards, Philip. John On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 10:05 AM, PETER CHARLTON <peter.nambo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: There is an awful lot at stake here. How terrible for either of us to cling to our beliefs at the cost of our souls. Incidentally, is there a consequence to denying Mary as "Queen of Heaven"? A good question indeed for Jesus said 7 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.' So, unless a doctrine such as Mary veneration is in the Bible, it is a doctrine of men. 46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, look! his mother and brothers took up a position outside seeking to speak to him. 47 So someone said to him: "Look! Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak to you." 48 As an answer he said to the one telling him: "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 And extending his hand toward his disciples, he said: "Look! My mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Also, Jesus showed us that even he himself was not to be venerated, let alone his Mother, only his Father in heaven, MT 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? MT 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Pete Charlton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get Free 5GB Email – Check out spam free email with many cool features! Visit http://www.inbox.com/email to find out more! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now