[geocentrism] Re: correction

  • From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 09:07:57 +1000

"neville, first:  ...................."  Wayne..  

Ok that got Neville out of the way... Whose next?  (grin)

Phil. 

But I think you got a point here as regard the Jews. I think there are good 
jews and bad jews..  Obviously the good guys are from David as shown in Luke, 
whom Jesus selected, and those who followed him. When Jesus was lost in the 
temple, He was with friends obviously..  The bad jews were those who followed 
contrary cults among the Pharisees .. And of course there is always the problem 
of transcribing what is meant in middle english language into todays lingo. 
What they meant by jew.. well what they meant by almost anything..  Even my 
mothers 1930's english is far from mine or the worlds today. I tried to re-read 
Treasure Island a year or so ago..  I couldn't hack it.. 

And as regard Nevilles view, perhaps this is from earlier posts before your 
time, but he has ,as I think any sensitive person would have,  grave 
reservations about the authenticity of a merciful God who would keep a soul or 
person alive and conscious FOREVER and burn and torture everypart of his being 
without pause, without pause forever.. As Jesus said, it would have been better 
that  that man had never been born, ..... and presumably billions more with 
him. 

Unfortunately for me, the evidential support is overwhelmingly on Gods side in 
support of Hell. Neville choses to say this type of God is a Devil...  I'm not 
game to do that..  As the disciple said, when Jesus asked, "Will you also walk 
away,  " "Lord to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. "  

But I still cannot imagine a happiness in Heaven of any sort whilst the great 
majority of my brothers and sisters , the entire human race, no matter how bad 
their temporary distorted lives were, are burning FOREVER. Keep in mind, they 
were born EVIL.. Conceived in sin. Without the magic words of baptism, they 
burn for ever. thats the orthodox dogma anyway.. 

Maybe Lucifer won, and took over..  Gasp! Heresy!..  

Philip.  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Wayne 
  To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 8:07 AM
  Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction


  greetings all.  It is a priviledge to be a part of this forum.  forgive me, 
but I'm going to break my silence with an earful right off the bat...
   
  neville, first:  to be quite honest I don't see how you can speak so 
confidently about this character you call the "devil", when you reject the one 
document of authority that establishes credible evidence for his existence?
   
  second:  if we're "going to decide what to believe and what to deny" based 
upon our own personal experience and ethical judgement (or racial preference?) 
, if we're the ones setting the standards, if we're the one's from which we're 
going to draw our own absolutes in this life (basically the same position as 
humanists by the way) then who is basically "God" in this scenerio?  (i would 
submit that its us?)
   
  Now if somone is going to set themselves up as their own independent judge of 
truth and righteousness, then I want to put their life under a microscope and 
see how they walk, when no one's watching.  If they're going to be the standard 
for good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, then I say, "Please, show 
me what righteousness looks like..."  "Show me the money" as a popular American 
film was said.  
   
  Now perhaps they may not participate in anything openly malicious and wicked 
(like cheating on your wife, or working for George Double-U, or pumping your 
neighbor's cat, or w/e it is that seems to float their boat when they're 
seeking out their fleshly desires), but I'm willing to bet that a thorough 
examination of their heart is going to reveal some things that don't look so 
"righteous"...
   
  I'd like to catch of whiff of the hatred and pride that's in their heart.  
The selfishness and arrogance and envy that is contained in those hidden places 
of the heart.  The apostle paul sums up this thing very nicely in Romans 2:21
   
  "You therefore who teach another, do you not teach yourself?  You who preach 
that one should not steal, do you steal?  You who say that one should not 
commit adultery, do you commit adultery?  You who abhor idols, do you rob 
temples?  You who boast in the law, through your breaking the law, do you 
dishonor God?"
   
  "You who accuse the Word of God as speaking untruths, do you yourself speak 
wickedness?"  (my own "personal" interpolation there  )
   
  and if we back up to verses 3,5
   
  "And do you suppose this o man, when you pass judgement upon those who 
practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the 
judgement of God?  ...But because of your stubbornness and unrepentent heart, 
you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the 
righteous judgement of God, WHO WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS 
DEEDS..."
   
  Third, since we're putting the morality and judgement of the God of the bible 
on trial here, allow me to throw something out there in His defense.  In case 
one wasn't aware, those "poor and helpless" nations of the land of Canaan (the 
"promised land") whom the Jews conquered and drove out, weren't exactly a 
shining example of righteousness themselves.
   
  In recent years, secular archaeology has largely confirmed what the bible 
already told us:  and that's the fact that these people were wicked.  How can I 
say that?  Well, for starters, these people worshipped deities like "Molech", 
who is referenced several times in the Old Testament.  Molech, in case you 
weren't aware, was a deity that demanded blood from his subjects (although I 
must admit Yahweh did as well).  But Molech didn't demand just any blood by the 
way (I'm afraid the blood of bulls and calves wasn't good enough for this 
'beacon of goodness').   Nope, these people burned their own children "in the 
fire", as the scriptures and secular history now confirm.  and that's just one 
example of the caliber of "good deeds" that these nations participated in daily.
   
  Now, one could easily argue that the Israelites themselves weren't exactly a 
shining example of righteousness at this point either, or throughout much of 
their storied history after that, but thats the whole point! One of the things 
God was clearly doing in those days was "carving out a people for his own 
possession" (Deuteronomy 7 explains this nicely).  God took for himself a 
nation from within another nation, to make them his own.  To be a shepherd, and 
yes a father to them.  To teach them the difference between good and evil, 
right and wrong, etc.  TO SET THE STANDARD.. TO GIVE THE WORLD AN 
ABSOLUTE(s)... To make his name known among the nations.  
   
  Now the fact that the Jews more often than not did not respond appropriately 
to God's "parenting skills" by no means indicates that God the Father needs to 
take some parenting classes from the American or British government, no sir!  
(more on that another time, suffice it to say that God does in fact raise Good 
kids, its just that the bad eggs seem to get all the attention in secular 
history.  which reminds me, if we understand that "science" is untrustworthy, 
what makes us thing that "history" (falsely so called?) is any better?  I 
prefer    "HIS-story"
   
  Fourth, if Jesus' statements in the New Testament are going to be referenced 
as a source of "truth" that opens our eyes, then let's play fair.   John 8:44 
and the "you are of your father the devil" statement is in context of verse 13, 
which gives us a little clue as to who in particular Jesus was probably 
addressing.  Although again I will admit the nation as a whole was largely 
wicked as well.  but they are no different than every nation that has been 
raised up under heaven before and since then (excluding the nation of the 
faithful of course [Hebrews 12:22-24])
   
  Furthermore, the same church as referenced above in Hebrews is addressed to 
by the Apostle John in 1 John 3:4-10 and are told that the reality of life is 
that anyone who practices sin is of their father, the devil.
   
  But back to Jesus who we seem to be appealing to as a credible source of 
truth and goodness, how about these memorable gems:
   
  Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus tells the disciples to avoid the gentiles and the 
samaritans altogether!
   
  Matthew 15:21-28  In this scene Jesus basically likens a Canaanite woman to a 
dog! (although He end up granting her request, btw)
   
  and how can I forget this one:
   
  John 4:22  "...we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews."
   
  Also, if anyone is interested, Romans 3:1-2, Romans 9:3-5, as well as 
Ephesians 2:11-12 clearly shows that even the beloved apostle paul (whom 
usually is also widely esteemed among those who aren't too fond of today's 
jews) understood that the Old Testament jews were a privileged bunch that God 
himself had taken under his wing.
   
  Now, we may not like what the descendents of those ancient jews have become 
and what they represent today, but that does not give us any credible moral, 
historical, or intellectual grounds for rejecting the whole of scripture 
(bible) as a reliable document of authority.
   
  Furthermore, if the "judaism" that was referenced in the following statement 
"Judaism was created out of stolen Egyptian beliefs" has to do specifically 
with the God of the Old Testament, I would like to see actual "evidence" 
produced for this.
   
  Last, but not least, the "lying pen of the scribes" can largely be proven to 
be a baseless accusation as well.  It's hardly an original criticism of the 
bible, and one that the bible has successfully withstood for hundreds of years 
now.  If anyone actually researches the textual tradition of the transmission 
of the Old Testament canon, one will clearly see an abundance of evidence that 
those scriptures have passed on down to us in a remarkably unmolested and 
pristine condition.  I would be happy to share this "evidence" with anyone who 
is interested.
   
  Sorry about the short novel as my first post, but this is "how we roll" as my 
hip-hop friends here in the states would say...
   
  good day mates...
   
  wayne 
   
  Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:39:00 -0800From: njones@xxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction
  To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx





    -----Original Message-----
    From: pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Sent: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:46:25 +1000


    I don't know -- but I'll move on now.

    With respect to all,
    John
    Hey John... Hope you are not moving on er off ..  the list that is..  I'm 
not finished with ya yet!  Grin.. 

    You said, 
    So it's significant that Neville appears to believe little of what the 
bible says,

    I don't really believe that...  not at all.. All he has done is shown an 
open ness to what it all means..  Something everybody wants..  right Neville? 
Thats putting honesty above conviction...  something a lot of scientists will 
not do. 

    Phil

    Well, as a very clever French professor I know used to say, whenever anyone 
asked him an awkward question, "you are right, and you are not right."

    The most important and significant thing for me to realize about the Bible 
was when I clearly saw that the Jews are not God's 'chosen people'. Far from 
it. Yet this was there, before my nose, all the time: "Ye are of your father, 
the Devil, and the works of your father ye will do, for he was a liar and a 
murderer from the beginning."

    This is a truth and it definitely set me free. In fact, Phil, you were a 
member of this forum in the days when I would ban someone if they insulted the 
Jews. The truth opened my eyes not only to exactly what is going on in this 
sick and depraved world, but to the "lying pen of the scribes" and the "yeast 
of the Pharisees."

    Only recently have I discovered that Judaism was created out of stolen 
Egyptian beliefs in order to give a wandering bunch of liars and deceivers some 
form of credence.

    There are truths in the Bible, but where I differ from you and John is that 
I see that these truths are intertwined with lies and deceit. directed by, ... 
well, who is the master of deceit?

    So, and in answer now to John's question, I would say that 'moved' (in, off 
the top of my head, Ps. 93:1, 96:10, 1 Ch. 16:?) means to physically, spatially 
move, and that this scripture is true. This, actually, gives you both a good 
idea of my position, inasmuch as I now deny Joshua's 'long day', not because of 
the Sun and Moon being told to stand still, but because it labels God as the 
patsie (the past is the key to the present). Such a bloodthirsty character 
could only be the Devil. This is how I decide what to believe and what to deny. 
The Jews either engaged in this wanton carnage because they revel in it, or 
because the Devil instructed them, or both.

    Hence, you and John will still see quotes from the Bible on my web site, 
but they will never be of the Joshua's 'long rampage of blood and gore' type.

    Best wishes,

    Neville.



      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: John Roodt 
      To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 2:55 PM
      Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction


      :-) no problem, Phil. And, no, I am not a clever scholar.

      We're like a company of soldiers all marching to the beat of the drum in 
our own heads, and each of us loudly protesting that we're the only one in step.

      But even though we should probably end this discussion, I see no reason 
to apologise to this forum.

      Wasn't it the Scripture that caused us to question the current model of 
the Universe? Even though we had no scientific proof, we were confident that 
the Bible held a contrary view, and we were inclined to believe it.

      In fact, Neville's website initially quoted the Scriptures that indicated 
that the Earth was fixed and could not be moved.

      I asked the question ages ago whether or not the word 'moved' meant a 
physical movement as opposed to: "my heart is steadfast and will not be moved", 
or "I was moved to tears" etc. No one answered it. But I have watched the 
debates to see if the question would be answered anyway.

      So it's significant that Neville appears to believe little of what the 
bible says, and that you and I (and others) can differ so much in our 
interpretation of what the bible says. Does it really matter to us whether or 
not we rotate and orbit or just stand still? What matters is that there is an 
apparent discrepancy between what Science says and what we believe the Bible 
says. At least that's how it appeared when I joined this forum. Maybe you've 
all moved beyond that and I haven't. My only concern is: "what is the truth?"

      We both love the truth; we read the same Scriptures; and we pray to the 
same God for understanding on these matters and others far more important than 
whether the Earth moves or not. How then can we be so far apart?

      I don't know -- but I'll move on now.

      With respect to all,
      John


      On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 1:48 PM, philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
wrote:

        Peter came in with some biblical comments that seemed to deny Jesus was 
God. along with other, Therefore I can answer those points together with my 
response to Johns below. inserted in brown..  Philip. 

        ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: John Roodt 
          To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
          Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:18 AM
          Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction


          Phil,

          Catholics overlook one glaring truth. JESUS EXISTED BEFORE THE WORLD 
BEGAN!! In what possible sense could Mary be his mother in Heaven?!?  A Mystery 
perhaps but Elizabeth did say it..

          42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou 
among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me 
that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 

          Some Catholics may overlook it !  but they are not "clever 
scientists" like myself, and would hardly be expected to comprehend the 
complexities of time space and eternity. Thats why Heaven is called a place of 
many mansions!

          I have already asked John using this same quotation , did he 
understand the difference. "Before Abraham was born, I AM". Time is temporal or 
temporary.. Eternity in temporal terms is compared to an everpresent "now" A 
mystery to 3D human brains, but fully experienced in the next world. "   We 
pray ....." Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, as 
it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be..."
          beginning  =  ever shall be..  

          What has Mary to do with Him?

          46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit 
hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of 
his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 
49 Because he that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is his 
name. 

          Jesus entered this world for a purpose ... He wasn't created here the 
way we are. He already existed. He is no-one's Son but God's alone. Mary is NOT 
the mother of God. 
        And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 
        She is not even the mother of Jesus in glory -- how could she be?

        You've said it yourself, Catholics make "Graven images of things in 
Heaven and Earth and pay them homage"... how much more evidence must you see of 
pagan worship before your eyes are opened and you see the truth?

        You read into my words a thing I did not say. And it is off subject, 
unless you are only interested in Catholic bashing..  I am not into protestant 
bashing, and will not be drawn into such a slanging match here. 
        Sufficient to say, no catholic may pay homage to images or things. 
Respect absolutely, as I would hope you give to the Holy Book, lest someone 
commit sacrilege with it. You could not see, or else ignored my accent on 
humility in all things  as promoted by Mary. 

        The Bible is an incredible work. Consider how God allows sinful men to 
be the writers of His Word. Even Jesus did not commit anything to writing -- He 
knows that He can get man to write down His eternal and perfect truths. Even 
though they are weaved into the fabric of human existence -- interlaced with 
the stories of sinful human lives. It is truly amazing. How awesome, and wise, 
and great is our God. The depth of His Wisdom is unfathomable.

        Thus here may I take the quote Peter used and His comment..  
         It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as 
doctrines commands of men.' 

        So, unless a doctrine such as Mary veneration is in the Bible, it is a 
doctrine of men.  Peter. "Consider how God allows sinful men to be the writers 
of His Word. Even Jesus did not commit anything to writing -- He knows that He 
can get man to write down His eternal and perfect truths" 

        And if you did not hear it from His mouth, how can you be absolutely 
sure the Bible is not a collection of the  doctrines of men!  

        Jesus selected 12, many more than the few of the testaments. Yet it was 
the men who followed centuries later who decided to collect and authorise the 
Books into a canonised NT of Scripture. "Doctrines of men " As are  the Quran 
or the Book of Mormon!.... They cannot authorise themselves.. 

        Mary is just a blessed part of the fabric through which God wove His 
plan for salvation. Jesus himself said that no-one born of woman was greater 
than John the Baptist --  not even Mary. How could she be exalted above even 
John the Baptist?

        These issues are your preferred interpretation. If you are indeed a 
clever scholar then I must weigh your opinion against other clever scholars who 
also are very well educated men.  And after that, then one must wonder which if 
any has the guidance of the Holy Ghost. 


        That the most intelligent of scholars in the world are unable to find 
consensus on so many issues raised by Bible study, is fair evidence to show how 
in-appropriate is the idea that the Bible Alone suffices unto salvation. 



        Thanks for efforts to explain your position, but I think you need to 
step back and re-look at what you believe.

        Be sure I believe nothing blindly. I said above, "And after that, then 
one must wonder which if any has the guidance of the Holy Ghost. "  If it was 
on scholarship alone, I would have no faith. I firmly believe that those men 
whose apostolic succession is proven by the historical continuity of  "laying 
of the hands" in ceremonial sacramental ordination all the way back to the 
Apostles, and to Christ Himself are the most logical group whose scholarship 
would be guided by the Holy Ghost; that same group of men who collected and 
authorised the Holy Scripture and protected it throughout the centuries. 

        I agree, we have exhausted the subject here. Its been an enjoyable 
discussion. My Prayers as always are with you and all the members of the group. 
Many thanks to Neville for his tolerance and for allowing us to proceed.    
Regards,   Philip. 

        John




        On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 10:05 AM, PETER CHARLTON 
<peter.nambo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


              There is an awful lot at stake here. How terrible for either of 
us to cling to our beliefs at the cost of our souls. Incidentally, is there a 
consequence to denying Mary as "Queen of Heaven"?


              A good question indeed for Jesus said 7 It is in vain that they 
keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.' 

              So, unless a doctrine such as Mary veneration is in the Bible, it 
is a doctrine of men.


              46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, look! his mother and 
brothers took up a position outside seeking to speak to him. 47 So someone said 
to him: "Look! Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, seeking to 
speak to you." 48 As an answer he said to the one telling him: "Who is my 
mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 And extending his hand toward his 
disciples, he said: "Look! My mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the 
will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and 
mother." 

              Also, Jesus showed us that even he himself was not to be 
venerated, let alone his Mother, only his Father in heaven,  MT 19:16 And, 
behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, 
that I may have eternal life?

              MT 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is 
none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the 
commandments.


              Pete Charlton  





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