[geocentrism] Re: correction
- From: Wayne <mtwaynew@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:07:10 -0600
greetings all. It is a priviledge to be a part of this forum. forgive me, but
I'm going to break my silence with an earful right off the bat...
neville, first: to be quite honest I don't see how you can speak so
confidently about this character you call the "devil", when you reject the one
document of authority that establishes credible evidence for his existence?
second: if we're "going to decide what to believe and what to deny" based upon
our own personal experience and ethical judgement (or racial preference?) , if
we're the ones setting the standards, if we're the one's from which we're going
to draw our own absolutes in this life (basically the same position as
humanists by the way) then who is basically "God" in this scenerio? (i would
submit that its us?)
Now if somone is going to set themselves up as their own independent judge of
truth and righteousness, then I want to put their life under a microscope and
see how they walk, when no one's watching. If they're going to be the standard
for good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, then I say, "Please, show
me what righteousness looks like..." "Show me the money" as a popular American
film was said.
Now perhaps they may not participate in anything openly malicious and wicked
(like cheating on your wife, or working for George Double-U, or pumping your
neighbor's cat, or w/e it is that seems to float their boat when they're
seeking out their fleshly desires), but I'm willing to bet that a thorough
examination of their heart is going to reveal some things that don't look so
"righteous"...
I'd like to catch of whiff of the hatred and pride that's in their heart. The
selfishness and arrogance and envy that is contained in those hidden places of
the heart. The apostle paul sums up this thing very nicely in Romans 2:21
"You therefore who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach
that one should not steal, do you steal? You who say that one should not
commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob
temples? You who boast in the law, through your breaking the law, do you
dishonor God?"
"You who accuse the Word of God as speaking untruths, do you yourself speak
wickedness?" (my own "personal" interpolation there )
and if we back up to verses 3,5
"And do you suppose this o man, when you pass judgement upon those who practice
such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgement of
God? ...But because of your stubbornness and unrepentent heart, you are
storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the
righteous judgement of God, WHO WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS
DEEDS..."
Third, since we're putting the morality and judgement of the God of the bible
on trial here, allow me to throw something out there in His defense. In case
one wasn't aware, those "poor and helpless" nations of the land of Canaan (the
"promised land") whom the Jews conquered and drove out, weren't exactly a
shining example of righteousness themselves.
In recent years, secular archaeology has largely confirmed what the bible
already told us: and that's the fact that these people were wicked. How can I
say that? Well, for starters, these people worshipped deities like "Molech",
who is referenced several times in the Old Testament. Molech, in case you
weren't aware, was a deity that demanded blood from his subjects (although I
must admit Yahweh did as well). But Molech didn't demand just any blood by the
way (I'm afraid the blood of bulls and calves wasn't good enough for this
'beacon of goodness'). Nope, these people burned their own children "in the
fire", as the scriptures and secular history now confirm. and that's just one
example of the caliber of "good deeds" that these nations participated in daily.
Now, one could easily argue that the Israelites themselves weren't exactly a
shining example of righteousness at this point either, or throughout much of
their storied history after that, but thats the whole point! One of the things
God was clearly doing in those days was "carving out a people for his own
possession" (Deuteronomy 7 explains this nicely). God took for himself a
nation from within another nation, to make them his own. To be a shepherd, and
yes a father to them. To teach them the difference between good and evil,
right and wrong, etc. TO SET THE STANDARD.. TO GIVE THE WORLD AN
ABSOLUTE(s)... To make his name known among the nations.
Now the fact that the Jews more often than not did not respond appropriately to
God's "parenting skills" by no means indicates that God the Father needs to
take some parenting classes from the American or British government, no sir!
(more on that another time, suffice it to say that God does in fact raise Good
kids, its just that the bad eggs seem to get all the attention in secular
history. which reminds me, if we understand that "science" is untrustworthy,
what makes us thing that "history" (falsely so called?) is any better? I
prefer "HIS-story"
Fourth, if Jesus' statements in the New Testament are going to be referenced as
a source of "truth" that opens our eyes, then let's play fair. John 8:44 and
the "you are of your father the devil" statement is in context of verse 13,
which gives us a little clue as to who in particular Jesus was probably
addressing. Although again I will admit the nation as a whole was largely
wicked as well. but they are no different than every nation that has been
raised up under heaven before and since then (excluding the nation of the
faithful of course [Hebrews 12:22-24])
Furthermore, the same church as referenced above in Hebrews is addressed to by
the Apostle John in 1 John 3:4-10 and are told that the reality of life is that
anyone who practices sin is of their father, the devil.
But back to Jesus who we seem to be appealing to as a credible source of truth
and goodness, how about these memorable gems:
Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus tells the disciples to avoid the gentiles and the
samaritans altogether!
Matthew 15:21-28 In this scene Jesus basically likens a Canaanite woman to a
dog! (although He end up granting her request, btw)
and how can I forget this one:
John 4:22 "...we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews."
Also, if anyone is interested, Romans 3:1-2, Romans 9:3-5, as well as Ephesians
2:11-12 clearly shows that even the beloved apostle paul (whom usually is also
widely esteemed among those who aren't too fond of today's jews) understood
that the Old Testament jews were a privileged bunch that God himself had taken
under his wing.
Now, we may not like what the descendents of those ancient jews have become and
what they represent today, but that does not give us any credible moral,
historical, or intellectual grounds for rejecting the whole of scripture
(bible) as a reliable document of authority.
Furthermore, if the "judaism" that was referenced in the following statement
"Judaism was created out of stolen Egyptian beliefs" has to do specifically
with the God of the Old Testament, I would like to see actual "evidence"
produced for this.
Last, but not least, the "lying pen of the scribes" can largely be proven to be
a baseless accusation as well. It's hardly an original criticism of the bible,
and one that the bible has successfully withstood for hundreds of years now.
If anyone actually researches the textual tradition of the transmission of the
Old Testament canon, one will clearly see an abundance of evidence that those
scriptures have passed on down to us in a remarkably unmolested and pristine
condition. I would be happy to share this "evidence" with anyone who is
interested.
Sorry about the short novel as my first post, but this is "how we roll" as my
hip-hop friends here in the states would say...
good day mates...
wayne
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:39:00 -0800From: njones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:
[geocentrism] Re: correctionTo: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----From: pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: Wed, 24 Sep 2008
16:46:25 +1000
I don't know -- but I'll move on now.With respect to all,JohnHey John... Hope
you are not moving on er off .. the list that is.. I'm not finished with ya
yet! Grin..
You said,
So it's significant that Neville appears to believe little of what the bible
says,
I don't really believe that... not at all.. All he has done is shown an open
ness to what it all means.. Something everybody wants.. right Neville? Thats
putting honesty above conviction... something a lot of scientists will not do.
Phil
Well, as a very clever French professor I know used to say, whenever anyone
asked him an awkward question, "you are right, and you are not right."The most
important and significant thing for me to realize about the Bible was when I
clearly saw that the Jews are not God's 'chosen people'. Far from it. Yet this
was there, before my nose, all the time: "Ye are of your father, the Devil, and
the works of your father ye will do, for he was a liar and a murderer from the
beginning."This is a truth and it definitely set me free. In fact, Phil, you
were a member of this forum in the days when I would ban someone if they
insulted the Jews. The truth opened my eyes not only to exactly what is going
on in this sick and depraved world, but to the "lying pen of the scribes" and
the "yeast of the Pharisees."Only recently have I discovered that Judaism was
created out of stolen Egyptian beliefs in order to give a wandering bunch of
liars and deceivers some form of credence.There are truths in the Bible, but
where I differ from you and John is that I see that these truths are
intertwined with lies and deceit. directed by, ... well, who is the master of
deceit?So, and in answer now to John's question, I would say that 'moved' (in,
off the top of my head, Ps. 93:1, 96:10, 1 Ch. 16:?) means to physically,
spatially move, and that this scripture is true. This, actually, gives you both
a good idea of my position, inasmuch as I now deny Joshua's 'long day', not
because of the Sun and Moon being told to stand still, but because it labels
God as the patsie (the past is the key to the present). Such a bloodthirsty
character could only be the Devil. This is how I decide what to believe and
what to deny. The Jews either engaged in this wanton carnage because they revel
in it, or because the Devil instructed them, or both.Hence, you and John will
still see quotes from the Bible on my web site, but they will never be of the
Joshua's 'long rampage of blood and gore' type.Best wishes,Neville.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Roodt
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 2:55 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction
:-) no problem, Phil. And, no, I am not a clever scholar.We're like a company
of soldiers all marching to the beat of the drum in our own heads, and each of
us loudly protesting that we're the only one in step.But even though we should
probably end this discussion, I see no reason to apologise to this forum.Wasn't
it the Scripture that caused us to question the current model of the Universe?
Even though we had no scientific proof, we were confident that the Bible held a
contrary view, and we were inclined to believe it.In fact, Neville's website
initially quoted the Scriptures that indicated that the Earth was fixed and
could not be moved.I asked the question ages ago whether or not the word
'moved' meant a physical movement as opposed to: "my heart is steadfast and
will not be moved", or "I was moved to tears" etc. No one answered it. But I
have watched the debates to see if the question would be answered anyway.So
it's significant that Neville appears to believe little of what the bible says,
and that you and I (and others) can differ so much in our interpretation of
what the bible says. Does it really matter to us whether or not we rotate and
orbit or just stand still? What matters is that there is an apparent
discrepancy between what Science says and what we believe the Bible says. At
least that's how it appeared when I joined this forum. Maybe you've all moved
beyond that and I haven't. My only concern is: "what is the truth?"We both love
the truth; we read the same Scriptures; and we pray to the same God for
understanding on these matters and others far more important than whether the
Earth moves or not. How then can we be so far apart?I don't know -- but I'll
move on now.With respect to all,John
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 1:48 PM, philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Peter came in with some biblical comments that seemed to deny Jesus was God.
along with other, Therefore I can answer those points together with my response
to Johns below. inserted in brown.. Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Roodt
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:18 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction
Phil,Catholics overlook one glaring truth. JESUS EXISTED BEFORE THE WORLD
BEGAN!! In what possible sense could Mary be his mother in Heaven?!? A Mystery
perhaps but Elizabeth did say it..
42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me that the
mother of my Lord should come to me? Some Catholics may overlook it ! but they
are not "clever scientists" like myself, and would hardly be expected to
comprehend the complexities of time space and eternity. Thats why Heaven is
called a place of many mansions!
I have already asked John using this same quotation , did he understand the
difference. "Before Abraham was born, I AM". Time is temporal or temporary..
Eternity in temporal terms is compared to an everpresent "now" A mystery to 3D
human brains, but fully experienced in the next world. " We pray ....." Glory
be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, as it was in the
beginning, is now, and ever shall be..."
beginning = ever shall be..
What has Mary to do with Him?
46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced
in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid:
for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he
that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is his name.
Jesus entered this world for a purpose ... He wasn't created here the way we
are. He already existed. He is no-one's Son but God's alone. Mary is NOT the
mother of God.
And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
She is not even the mother of Jesus in glory -- how could she be?You've said it
yourself, Catholics make "Graven images of things in Heaven and Earth and pay
them homage"... how much more evidence must you see of pagan worship before
your eyes are opened and you see the truth?You read into my words a thing I did
not say. And it is off subject, unless you are only interested in Catholic
bashing.. I am not into protestant bashing, and will not be drawn into such a
slanging match here.
Sufficient to say, no catholic may pay homage to images or things. Respect
absolutely, as I would hope you give to the Holy Book, lest someone commit
sacrilege with it. You could not see, or else ignored my accent on humility in
all things as promoted by Mary.
The Bible is an incredible work. Consider how God allows sinful men to be the
writers of His Word. Even Jesus did not commit anything to writing -- He knows
that He can get man to write down His eternal and perfect truths. Even though
they are weaved into the fabric of human existence -- interlaced with the
stories of sinful human lives. It is truly amazing. How awesome, and wise, and
great is our God. The depth of His Wisdom is unfathomable.
Thus here may I take the quote Peter used and His comment..
It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines
commands of men.'
So, unless a doctrine such as Mary veneration is in the Bible, it is a doctrine
of men. Peter. "Consider how God allows sinful men to be the writers of His
Word. Even Jesus did not commit anything to writing -- He knows that He can get
man to write down His eternal and perfect truths"
And if you did not hear it from His mouth, how can you be absolutely sure the
Bible is not a collection of the doctrines of men!
Jesus selected 12, many more than the few of the testaments. Yet it was the men
who followed centuries later who decided to collect and authorise the Books
into a canonised NT of Scripture. "Doctrines of men " As are the Quran or the
Book of Mormon!.... They cannot authorise themselves..
Mary is just a blessed part of the fabric through which God wove His plan for
salvation. Jesus himself said that no-one born of woman was greater than John
the Baptist -- not even Mary. How could she be exalted above even John the
Baptist?
These issues are your preferred interpretation. If you are indeed a clever
scholar then I must weigh your opinion against other clever scholars who also
are very well educated men. And after that, then one must wonder which if any
has the guidance of the Holy Ghost.
That the most intelligent of scholars in the world are unable to find consensus
on so many issues raised by Bible study, is fair evidence to show how
in-appropriate is the idea that the Bible Alone suffices unto salvation.
Thanks for efforts to explain your position, but I think you need to step back
and re-look at what you believe.
Be sure I believe nothing blindly. I said above, "And after that, then one must
wonder which if any has the guidance of the Holy Ghost. " If it was on
scholarship alone, I would have no faith. I firmly believe that those men whose
apostolic succession is proven by the historical continuity of "laying of the
hands" in ceremonial sacramental ordination all the way back to the Apostles,
and to Christ Himself are the most logical group whose scholarship would be
guided by the Holy Ghost; that same group of men who collected and authorised
the Holy Scripture and protected it throughout the centuries.
I agree, we have exhausted the subject here. Its been an enjoyable discussion.
My Prayers as always are with you and all the members of the group. Many thanks
to Neville for his tolerance and for allowing us to proceed. Regards,
Philip. John
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 10:05 AM, PETER CHARLTON <peter.nambo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
There is an awful lot at stake here. How terrible for either of us to cling to
our beliefs at the cost of our souls. Incidentally, is there a consequence to
denying Mary as "Queen of Heaven"?
A good question indeed for Jesus said 7 It is in vain that they keep worshiping
me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.'
So, unless a doctrine such as Mary veneration is in the Bible, it is a doctrine
of men.
46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, look! his mother and brothers took
up a position outside seeking to speak to him. 47 So someone said to him:
"Look! Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak to
you." 48 As an answer he said to the one telling him: "Who is my mother, and
who are my brothers?" 49 And extending his hand toward his disciples, he said:
"Look! My mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father who
is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."
Also, Jesus showed us that even he himself was not to be venerated, let alone
his Mother, only his Father in heaven, MT 19:16 And, behold, one came and said
unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal
life?MT 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none
good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
commandments.
Pete Charlton
Get Free 5GB Email – Check out spam free email with many cool features!Visit
http://www.inbox.com/email to find out more!
_________________________________________________________________
Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
Other related posts:
