[geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs attachment

  • From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:37:02 -0700 (PDT)

The reason you guys don't understand how or why a mass spring will demonstrate 
a acceleration regurdless of Grav is because:
1. You dont undertand or understanding how grav works you assume not 
demonstrate that grav  tied to motion or accelerations/ inerta, It is 
not period! Motion is not determined or dependent on or by grav nor is inertia 
determined by gravity.
2. The reason you guys have such a hard time with #1 is that your concepts of 
inertia are completly wrong!!!!!!!!!!.. MS states Ineria is a force and you all 
treat it as one even if you deny MS's explination. Inertia is not a force!  MS 
states that it is! (even though some of you even contridict your own postion by 
"accepting" MS's defintion but denouncing MS's explination!?)..Again I have 
already demonstrated not just asserted my lomg held "feelings" on the 
matter via observations framed logicaly to :
A. (Directly) demonstrate a logical path to my conclusions
B. (Indirectly)  demonstrate the logical error of the converse arguments and as 
a consequence all other alternitives.
However, a proper understanding of ineria would be to say that inertia is to 
force what darkness is to light!..............we say light is photons.....where 
darkness is litterly "nothing" it is simply a description of a absent state wrt 
photons.........it is simply that absense of photons, but in lietterl terms 
darkness has not substance it is not somthing but rather a descrition of the 
absence of somthing photons or light. IN the same way inertia is not a force 
but simply the absence of a force where any state will remain constant as long 
as there is no change if there is a change then that change was due to a force 
...however if there was no changein the state then there was no  force to act 
upon it!..it is that simple inetia is not a force in fact it is not anythig 
with any substance it is only a decription for when there is no force to act 
upon so as to change any given state....it takes a force or energy to creat any 
given state ...thus is
 take energy to change that state......no change no energy no energy no 
change...that is what inertia is litterly nothing more then a term that 
describes "nothingness" wrt to energy...........in the exact same way that 
darkness is used to describe "nothingness" wrt a particular kind of energy 
namely photons.
Summary: Once Phil , Paul and Regner understand this and the fact that their 
ideas, concepts and accepted constructs are contridictory with not only 
observations but are even contridictory within their own concpets and 
constructs themselvs, only then will they be able to truly even begin to grasp 
the true nature of Gravity and begin to have a real not just a psudo scientific 
outlook on the universe that they, unwittingly or not, currently have now ..by 
deffintion.....(The absense of Observation and Experinace framed within a 
Logical evaluation)......  Asserting  contridictry postions/ arguments cannot 
be said to lay claim to a scientific approach!

----- Original Message ----
From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, May 5, 2008 7:59:14 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs attachment

The bottom line is i state a acceleration can be detected in a free fall when 
only grav is the cause of the acceleration ....you say it cannot but then you 
go to great lengths to explain how before we drop the mass weiged 30 gm i think 
you said..then at the moment of drop we become weightless..and the scale will 
not show 30 gm any more.......
Phil for the last time a acceleration is a change ..if you detect that change 
you cannot then claim the change is undetectable...you contridict your self and 
you still don't even see it.........!?
Again we are only looking for a detectable change not nessisarily a fixed 
magnitude  you admit the change exist and that we will detect the change but 
you claim it does not demonstrate a detection of a acceleration in free 

----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2008 7:05:57 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs attachment

as well as any constant velocity to any other differnet velocity… as long as a 
velocity remains constant then yes a mass on a spring will eventually "zero 
itself out" just like you in the elevator notice the initial change but 
eventually the "sensation"and scale on board "zeros out" acceleration is only 
the change not any certain magnitude…
very  contradictory in the one sentence..  The underlined is unintelligable,  
but the bit I changed to color is not what I said.  and not true in a free 
falling object in an elevator..  The fall in the sealed elevator is 
acceleration at 32ft/sec/sec Even as the velocity is rapidly increasing, the 
spring scales will remain at zero and not register any weight. 
What in the world are you describing when you say "we will all notice the state 
" ?!
Getting close Allen..  Starting to comprehend the meaning of acceleration..  
Suddenly experiencing weightlessness is the absence of a force on mass in 
producing weight..  i.e gravity. It is not a sense of motion.
the magnitude is the most important point you brought up and which you are 
Acceleration is change in velocity..  the magnitude of the velocity change if 
you like. That change small or large cannot be detected in free fall..  Only 
your brain tells you that you are falling... nothing else. Not even the sensory 
parts of your inner ear will detect an increasing velocity..  or any movement 
at all during the fall.
The change in state in the initial instant, get that at zero velocity, is the 
removal of the sense of weight..  It is not a change in velocity, not yet.  
necessary for there to be acceleration. From then onwards the duration of the 
fall the senses will not detect even that you are moving, let alone the 
magnitude of velocity change which is acceleration.  the feeling you sense will 
be exactly the same near the bottom of the fall as it was at the instant BEFORE 
you began to fall. 
I know you are still baffled...  imagine you throw a ball up..  At the very top 
of its flight it will have no weight, no motion, and no sense of up or down.  
Finally one of the first sensations the astronauts reported in weightlessness 
whilst in orbit, was a sense of falling..  just like the elevator, but they 
could not and cannot sense in which direction they were falling..  Only when 
they looked out the window could they see and reason it out, but all their 
senses told them they were motionless, with a spinning ball EARTH  over 
there...  Not even down there..  They have no sense of what is up or down. 
They can have a seat on the ceiling or the floor.. LOL
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Allen Daves 
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:47 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs attachment

An accelerometer detects only the change in state of motion  that includes any 
change including from 0- to any velocity,  as well as any constant velocity to 
any other differnet velocity… as long as a velocity remains constant then yes a 
mass on a spring will eventually "zero itself out" just like you in the 
elevator notice the initial change but eventually the "sensation" and scale on 
board "zeros out" acceleration is only the change not any certain 
magnitude…only the change is noticed, we are only looking for the changes ….. 
The magnitude of the change(s) are not even relevant at this point.
 Detecting an acceleration is not the same as measuring (quantifiably defining) 
the magnitude of that change.
Guys, a detectable acceleration is only the change wrt magnitude or 
direction,  not the magnitude or direction of the change itself.....

----- Original Message ----
From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2008 5:12:26 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs attachment

"At the instant you initiate the drop we will all notice the state of 
 if you notice any change then you just detected the change in 
acceleration !?...That state would be demonstrated by a scale and or drift that 
takes place without ref anything outside...so what is your point?..you 
admit..quote " For the duration of the fall from that instant, though we may 
know we are weightless and the ounce of mass will show no weight on the spring 
scale, there is no way of us determining any change of velocity,"Phil the 
change was only from 0 to the inital velocity you have agreed that inertia and 
a acceleration are detecatable changes wrt motion...ok...you were haning(at a 
given weight) ..no moiton ..........then i droped you........... the notice of 
weightlessnes and scale shows no weight....You just showed a detectable change 
in velocity wrt magnitude or direction....Phil, that is a acceleration by 
defintion without referenceing anything out side of the craft....???....You 
just made my case??? further if any other changes are
 introduced in your acceleration rate thoes two will be detectable...????  The 
same holds true for a satilite in orbit you say "free fall"..well any change in 
velocity of that orbit will e detected even if the change is due to the 
moons/stars gravitaional fields..in fact that is why they say stailites 
dirft but they most certanly do detect it and the cause of the accelerations is 
gravity!? your postion and MS's is a self contridictory......... The orbit of 
the earth is not a constent acceleration it constantly changes wrt all thoes 
other inertial/ grav feilds...

----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2008 3:20:20 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs attachment

If I blind folded and suspend you magnetically in a closed metal elevator from 
a high tower turn off the electricity to the magnet suspending you....I wonder 
if you or a scale will notice anything even before you hit the ground ..ummmm. 
.Remember you and the elevator and all in it are only "accelerated by gravity" 
and  "equally to all parts".... Allen
A good question Allen, that may give me a chance to get through to you. 
No need for a blindfold..  we is in a sealed tin box. 
Let me hold a spring balance holding say 30 grms of mass. reading about 1 ounce 
on the scale. 
At the instant you initiate the drop we will all notice the state of 
weightlessness.. This is instantaneous at zero velocity, before anything falls. 
(no acelleration) 
At the same instant making alowance for the time delay for the spring to act, 
the spring balance will return to zero, registering zero weight on the scale 
for the duration. 
At the same instant plus a microsecond or so both I and the floor will remain 
in contact, and remain so for the duration. (no jumping or muscular reactions 
For the duration of the fall from that instant, though we may know we are 
weightless and the ounce of mass will show no weight on the spring scale, there 
is no way of us determining any change of velocity, whether it be constant or 
accelerating at 32ft. sec. sec. 
Try it allen!
Phil or anyone,
Please cite the observation(s) that proves gravity is: 
1. Pulling
2. Acts equally to all parts simoltaniously
3. Gravity determines inertial effects
You guys keep doing the same thing thinking no one notices .. You first assume 
those three things are true and then attempt to interprete and thus argue from 
those assumptions...That is not a logical argument or evaluation of anything. 
That is a circular fallicy!
I have show you that the only direct observation(s) show: 
1. Gravity to push rather then pull.
2. Gravity is never equall to all parts (all parts are never equal wrt whatever 
the cause of gravity is in any ref frame) ..If it was then elevators going 
down and roller costers who are only accelerated by gravity ( gravity is the 
cause of the accelerations) could never demonstrate accelerations....and yet 
they do so wonderfully!!
3.  Inertial effects are not determined by the absense or presence of gravity

I have accomplished all that by two logical proof methods....
A. Directly with observations and experiments
B. Indirectly by assuming the assertion of a given argument is true and then 
take it to it's logical conclusion to see if it contridics either itself or 
other observations.....  
Regaurdless of what gravity is or how gravity works inertial detection is not 
dependent on how gravity work! So even though we can say that gravity  pulls on 
all parts of the mass spring simoltaniously ..who cares Gravity is not the 
cause of inertia nor does it determine the detecion thereof!?  

The issue is.......Why we should or could not detect the acceleration of a mass 
in a free fall is 
I say that yes we should be able to detect the acceleration of the earth or any 
body in a orbit if the motion exist. further i assert a difference between real 
and relitive motions and state that the two are decernable and 
detectable....You say nay we cannot and should not expect to detect that 
1... ......If there is not way to detect the earth’s acceleration around the 
sun in free fall (assuming that inertia is gravitationaly dependent) and grav 
is pulling any accelerometer & mass that we would use to observe equally to all 
parts then how does that same grav in that exact same inertial field create an 
observable and different acceleration with the tides?..You do agree the tides 
are observable and accelerated by the sun & moons inertial gravitational field 
ryt..?!......If it does then you can’t claim the acceleration in free fall cant 
be detected!( but then we would have a difficulty with the force calculations 
being continent with the amount of nessisary force to lift that much sea 
water.) If the tides are not accelerated by the sun/ moon inertial field then 
you have a big problem don’t you?.
2. How can you can have a detectable change in orientation wrt a body (in 
grav/inertial free fall) while not having a detectable acceleration wrt the 
same body.....Without that little bit of information ( a detectable change in 
orientation around another body) you cannot even claim that your body even has 
a orbit period!..... around anything real or relative............Without a 
detectable change in orientation you cant lay claim to any motion period real 
or relative...You say we can do so by looking at the background 
stars......Looking at the back ground stars (external of your frame of refer so 
as to give you frame of reference a reference frame) still does not tell you 
which one of all those things has any motion...Two bodies surrounded by a shell 
of stars do not constituent a orbit just because the back ground stars are 
moving wrt those two bodies...try it ..you need not have real or relative 
motion of those two bodies just because a shell of
 background stars has a relative motion wrt those two bodies....If you don’t 
know that you have a motion wrt another body then you can’t claim observable 
motion of the background stars as evidence for what is in question that you 
don’t know and are trying to figure out in the first place.Without a 
demonstratable orbit you cant claim that the orbit's acceleration is 
"hidden" due to it suposedly being in a free fall.....You must first show that 
a orbit exits in the first place, otherwise any two objects placed next to 
eachother could be said to orbit each other?......If the argument is real v 
relative motions are meaningless wrt each other as Fred Hoyle does then, so to 
is the argument against a absolute rest frame ..Why?... If real v relative 
motions are meaningless wrt each other then how can you use "relative motion" 
to argue against the possibility of an absolute rest frame thus absolute 
motion?..The axiom is itself self-defeating in that it
 declares itself as meaningless wrt the alternative.  If they are meaningless 
wrt each other then how can it be a valid argument against it?...... Lets go 
one step further ...so 1.how is the theory you employ in your explinations 
falseifable and 2. How does it support invalidity for something else when it 
can’t even demonstrate validity about itself? So now you all are back to square 
one....In a circular or elliptical orbit how do you know that there is ANY 
MOTION(orbital) at all, real or relative.  
3. It has been stated:A uniform gravitational field cannot change the 
orientation of a body, whatever shape it has.The change of direction of the 
Earth's gravitational field from one end to the other of, e.g., thespace 
shuttle, is neglible and will not keep the shuttle horizontal with respect to 
Earth - attitude
thrusters at the front or the back has to be employed.Your Diagrams in your 
last post i think we would agree would not have the same orientation to the 
gravitational field wrt each other?This is to say that the orientation of "a" 
will not be the same as the one in "b" and further that "b" is always changing 
wrt the grv/inertia field.
The point: Unlike a falling object wrt earth, (apple from tree...aka.....free 
fall) In a orbit you must have, need and cannot just consider the earth's 
gravitational/inertial feild to pull the apple toward the earth but you also 
need a secondary force (inertial) to keep the propensity for the satilite to 
fly off into space in such a way that those two "forces" acting against each 
other are in balance with each other so as to have a stable orbit. If the only 
field present was grav then what keeps the satellite in orbit from falling to 
the earth..we say..inertia...ah but inertia is gravity.............. so which 
grav field and from where is acting on the satellite in the opisite direction 
of the pull of the gravity coming from the earth?...Explain how a circular/ 
continuous arc/ elliptical orbit of a near star different from a circular/ 
continuous arc/ elliptical trajectory wrt a distant star..... inertia is the 
force of gravity acting on a body in GTR
 .... it is due to those inertial fields that we observably measure when we 
detect any accelerations ..How do we isolate the gravitational/ inertial field 
of a near body from all the others out there that supposedly cause the reaction 
(inertia) in the first place? If we do not isolate them from each other, then a 
body has the same orientation to those distant external inertial fields that 
cause inertia whether or not it is in a orbit. But, this begs the question, if 
those external inertial fields are the cause of inertia then how does the 
inertial field of the body that is being orbited prevent those fields from 
doing the same thing they do when a body is not in a orbit, particularly since 
those distant fields are supposedly the cause of the inertial reaction. If 
however on the other hand we claim that the inertial /gravitational field that 
creates the inertial effects only pertains to the "Inertial reference frame" 
such that the distant
 mass/grav/inertial fields do not significantly affect the inertial field of 
the "inertial reference frame" thus preventing the detection of the free fall 
in that inertial field/ ref frame.....Then what keeps the orbit of the bodies 
from collapsing in on each other?!........ If gravity is the force pulling both 
bodies toward each other then where is the other vector force ( gravity/ 
inertial force that causes the bodies to move away from each other) coming from 
to balance the motions so as to create a stable orbit?.. If the inertial field 
of the distance stars do not significantly affect the inertial state of the 
body in orbit (it’’s "inertial reference frame")then while gravity is pulling 
the two bodies toward each other how exactly is gravity also the source of the 
inertial momentum away from that body that supposedly is in balance with the 
pull from that body to create the orbit!? And if the inertial fields of distant 
bodies does affect the
 "inertial ref frame" so as to produce the inertial force that keeps the 
propensity of the orbiting body to move away from the body being orbited,...... 
then how are the inertial affects due to those distant inertial fields 
prevented from deomonstrating a detectable acceleration in orbit while at the 
same time providing the inertial force to keep the whole thing working? Does a 
straight line trajectory wrt thoes distant inertial feilds produce a different 
effect then when the trajectory is a arc? if not why would a orbit matter where 
or not we could detect changes wrt thoese exact same distant inertial feilds 
that clearly demonstrated detectable accelerations when not moving in a 
arc?.......whether or not a body is at rest or in motion it is the distant 
inertial fields that cause the detection of motion or acceleration in the first 
place. How exactly do you define a free fall and at what point do the inertial 
fields that create the inertial effects
 (detection of acceleration) and at the same time prevent it? Free fall not a 
detection of acceleration is by definition changes wrt those same exact distant 
inertial/ gravitational fields. If you do not isolate those fields from your 
inertial one you claim we are in free fall around then there is no logical 
reason why those distant fields would be prevented from giving us a detectable 
acceleration in large arc verse a small one? Here is what you are left with. 
explaining, how a orbit or continuous arc trajectory of the body wrt those 
distant inertial fields is any different then..... a continuous arc trajectory 
wrt those distant inertial fields?! Are you claiming that if the arc makes a 
complete circuit then the effects of inertia due to those distant inertial 
fields not felt?!... An Acceleration is a measure of the inertial effect (the 
change of the state of motion wrt any given body). It is changes wrt those 
distant grav/inertia fields that is
 supposedly the cause of inertia so how exactly does the size of the arc or 
shape of a bodies trajectory wrt those distant fields determine whether or not 
we can detect the inertial effects? 
The reasons given thus far have been based on the equivalence principle. , 
However in your last post you attempt to appeal to Newtonian 
A. Newton does not claim that a acceleration in free fall cannot be detected..
B. Newton did not give us the equivalence principle.. 
C. Newton accepted absolute motion and thus in Newtonian Dynamics motion & or 
the detection thereof is not dependent upon a/any inertial reference frames, 
real, imaginary or otherwise...Therefore, the fact that you assume any given 
inertial reference frame means nothing wrt the arguments before us....why? 
..because it is the nature of the relationship of Gravity, acceleration motion 
and inertia not any "ref frame" that would have to affect whether or not we 
could detect any such free fall accelerations......so Im not sure what your 
attempting to demonstration here with/about Newtonian dynamics and or any 
inertial reference frames Newton addresses. 
You say a orbit is in free fall and we know that we are in orbit because we can 
detect the change in orientation but the acceleration of that orbit cannot be 
detected. All I claimed is that if a change existed in reality then necessarily 
we should be able to detect that change  in "free fall" or not . You even 
outline for us exactly what we would detect "At the instant you initiate the 
drop we will all notice the state of weightlessness" and yet you say we can't 
detect the change (acceleration) in velocity !?.... What in the world are you 
describing when you say "we will all notice the state " ?! 
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