[geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs attachment
- From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 12:05:57 +1000
as well as any constant velocity to any other differnet velocity… as long as a
velocity remains constant then yes a mass on a spring will eventually "zero
itself out" just like you in the elevator notice the initial change but
eventually the "sensation" and scale on board "zeros out" acceleration is only
the change not any certain magnitude…
very contradictory in the one sentence.. The underlined is unintelligable,
but the bit I changed to color is not what I said. and not true in a free
falling object in an elevator.. The fall in the sealed elevator is
acceleration at 32ft/sec/sec Even as the velocity is rapidly increasing, the
spring scales will remain at zero and not register any weight.
What in the world are you describing when you say "we will all notice the state
" ?!
Getting close Allen.. Starting to comprehend the meaning of acceleration..
Suddenly experiencing weightlessness is the absence of a force on mass in
producing weight.. i.e gravity. It is not a sense of motion.
the magnitude is the most important point you brought up and which you are
discounting.
Acceleration is change in velocity.. the magnitude of the velocity change if
you like. That change small or large cannot be detected in free fall.. Only
your brain tells you that you are falling... nothing else. Not even the sensory
parts of your inner ear will detect an increasing velocity.. or any movement
at all during the fall.
The change in state in the initial instant, get that at zero velocity, is the
removal of the sense of weight.. It is not a change in velocity, not yet.
necessary for there to be acceleration. From then onwards the duration of the
fall the senses will not detect even that you are moving, let alone the
magnitude of velocity change which is acceleration. the feeling you sense will
be exactly the same near the bottom of the fall as it was at the instant BEFORE
you began to fall.
I know you are still baffled... imagine you throw a ball up.. At the very top
of its flight it will have no weight, no motion, and no sense of up or down.
Finally one of the first sensations the astronauts reported in weightlessness
whilst in orbit, was a sense of falling.. just like the elevator, but they
could not and cannot sense in which direction they were falling.. Only when
they looked out the window could they see and reason it out, but all their
senses told them they were motionless, with a spinning ball EARTH over
there... Not even down there.. They have no sense of what is up or down.
They can have a seat on the ceiling or the floor.. LOL
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Daves
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:47 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs attachment
An accelerometer detects only the change in state of motion that includes
any change including from 0- to any velocity, as well as any constant velocity
to any other differnet velocity… as long as a velocity remains constant then
yes a mass on a spring will eventually "zero itself out" just like you in the
elevator notice the initial change but eventually the "sensation" and scale on
board "zeros out" acceleration is only the change not any certain
magnitude…only the change is noticed, we are only looking for the changes …..
The magnitude of the change(s) are not even relevant at this point.
Detecting an acceleration is not the same as measuring (quantifiably
defining) the magnitude of that change. All I claimed is that if a change
existed in reality then necessarily we should be able to detect that change in
"free fall" or not . You even outline for us exactly what we would detect "At
the instant you initiate the drop we will all notice the state of
weightlessness" and yet you say we can't detect the change (acceleration) in
velocity !?.... What in the world are you describing when you say "we will all
notice the state " ?!
Guys, a detectable acceleration is only the change wrt magnitude or
direction, not the magnitude or direction of the change itself.....
----- Original Message ----
From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2008 5:12:26 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs attachment
Phil,
"At the instant you initiate the drop we will all notice the state of
weightlessness"..
if you notice any change then you just detected the change in acceleration
!?...That state would be demonstrated by a scale and or drift that takes place
without ref anything outside...so what is your point?..you admit..quote " For
the duration of the fall from that instant, though we may know we are
weightless and the ounce of mass will show no weight on the spring scale, there
is no way of us determining any change of velocity," Phil the change was only
from 0 to the inital velocity you have agreed that inertia and a acceleration
are detecatable changes wrt motion...ok...you were haning (at a given weight)
..no moiton ..........then i droped you........... the notice of weightlessnes
and scale shows no weight....You just showed a detectable change in velocity
wrt magnitude or direction....Phil, that is a acceleration by defintion without
referenceing anything out side of the craft....???....You just made my case???
further if any other changes are introduced in your acceleration rate thoes two
will be detectable...???? The same holds true for a satilite in orbit you say
"free fall"..well any change in velocity of that orbit will e detected even if
the change is due to the moons/stars gravitaional fields..in fact that is why
they say stailites dirft but they most certanly do detect it and the cause of
the accelerations is gravity!? your postion and MS's is a self
contridictory......... The orbit of the earth is not a constent acceleration it
constantly changes wrt all thoes other inertial/ grav feilds...
----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2008 3:20:20 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: acceleration calcs attachment
If I blind folded and suspend you magnetically in a closed metal elevator
from a high tower turn off the electricity to the magnet suspending you....I
wonder if you or a scale will notice anything even before you hit the ground
..ummmm. .Remember you and the elevator and all in it are only "accelerated by
gravity" and "equally to all parts".... Allen
A good question Allen, that may give me a chance to get through to you.
No need for a blindfold.. we is in a sealed tin box.
Let me hold a spring balance holding say 30 grms of mass. reading about 1
ounce on the scale.
At the instant you initiate the drop we will all notice the state of
weightlessness.. This is instantaneous at zero velocity, before anything falls.
(no acelleration)
At the same instant making alowance for the time delay for the spring to act,
the spring balance will return to zero, registering zero weight on the scale
for the duration.
At the same instant plus a microsecond or so both I and the floor will remain
in contact, and remain so for the duration. (no jumping or muscular reactions
allowed)
For the duration of the fall from that instant, though we may know we are
weightless and the ounce of mass will show no weight on the spring scale, there
is no way of us determining any change of velocity, whether it be constant or
accelerating at 32ft. sec. sec.
Try it allen!
Philip.
Phil or anyone,
Please cite the observation(s) that proves gravity is:
1. Pulling
2. Acts equally to all parts simoltaniously
3. Gravity determines inertial effects
You guys keep doing the same thing thinking no one notices .. You first
assume those three things are true and then attempt to interprete and thus
argue from those assumptions...That is not a logical argument or evaluation of
anything. That is a circular fallicy!
I have show you that the only direct observation(s) show:
1. Gravity to push rather then pull.
2. Gravity is never equall to all parts (all parts are never equal wrt
whatever the cause of gravity is in any ref frame) ..If it was then elevators
going down and roller costers who are only accelerated by gravity ( gravity is
the cause of the accelerations) could never demonstrate accelerations....and
yet they do so wonderfully!!
3. Inertial effects are not determined by the absense or presence of gravity
I have accomplished all that by two logical proof methods....
A. Directly with observations and experiments
B. Indirectly by assuming the assertion of a given argument is true and then
take it to it's logical conclusion to see if it contridics either itself or
other observations.....
Regaurdless of what gravity is or how gravity works inertial detection is not
dependent on how gravity work! So even though we can say that gravity pulls on
all parts of the mass spring simoltaniously ..who cares Gravity is not the
cause of inertia nor does it determine the detecion thereof!?
The issue is.......Why we should or could not detect the acceleration of a
mass in a free fall is
I say that yes we should be able to detect the acceleration of the earth or
any body in a orbit if the motion exist. further i assert a difference between
real and relitive motions and state that the two are decernable and
detectable....You say nay we cannot and should not expect to detect that
acceleration...
1... ...... If there is not way to detect the earth’s acceleration around the
sun in free fall (assuming that inertia is gravitationaly dependent) and grav
is pulling any accelerometer & mass that we would use to observe equally to all
parts then how does that same grav in that exact same inertial field create an
observable and different acceleration with the tides?..You do agree the tides
are observable and accelerated by the sun & moons inertial gravitational field
ryt..?!......If it does then you can’t claim the acceleration in free fall cant
be detected! ( but then we would have a difficulty with the force calculations
being continent with the amount of nessisary force to lift that much sea
water.) If the tides are not accelerated by the sun/ moon inertial field then
you have a big problem don’t you?.
2. How can you can have a detectable change in orientation wrt a body (in
grav/inertial free fall) while not having a detectable acceleration wrt the
same body.....Without that little bit of information ( a detectable change in
orientation around another body) you cannot even claim that your body even has
a orbit period!..... around anything real or relative............Without a
detectable change in orientation you cant lay claim to any motion period real
or relative...You say we can do so by looking at the background
stars......Looking at the back ground stars (external of your frame of refer so
as to give you frame of reference a reference frame) still does not tell you
which one of all those things has any motion...Two bodies surrounded by a shell
of stars do not constituent a orbit just because the back ground stars are
moving wrt those two bodies...try it ..you need not have real or relative
motion of those two bodies just because a shell of background stars has a
relative motion wrt those two bodies....If you don’t know that you have a
motion wrt another body then you can’t claim observable motion of the
background stars as evidence for what is in question that you don’t know and
are trying to figure out in the first place. Without a demonstratable orbit you
cant claim that the orbit's acceleration is "hidden" due to it suposedly being
in a free fall.....You must first show that a orbit exits in the first place,
otherwise any two objects placed next to eachother could be said to orbit each
other?......If the argument is real v relative motions are meaningless wrt each
other as Fred Hoyle does then, so to is the argument against a absolute rest
frame ..Why?... If real v relative motions are meaningless wrt each other then
how can you use "relative motion" to argue against the possibility of an
absolute rest frame thus absolute motion?..The axiom is itself self-defeating
in that it declares itself as meaningless wrt the alternative. If they are
meaningless wrt each other then how can it be a valid argument against
it?...... Lets go one step further ...so 1.how is the theory you employ in your
explinations falseifable and 2. How does it support invalidity for something
else when it can’t even demonstrate validity about itself? So now you all are
back to square one....In a circular or elliptical orbit how do you know that
there is ANY MOTION (orbital) at all, real or relative.
3. It has been stated: A uniform gravitational field cannot change the
orientation of a body, whatever shape it has.The change of direction of the
Earth's gravitational field from one end to the other of, e.g., thespace
shuttle, is neglible and will not keep the shuttle horizontal with respect to
Earth - attitude
thrusters at the front or the back has to be employed.
Your Diagrams in your last post i think we would agree would not have the
same orientation to the gravitational field wrt each other? This is to say that
the orientation of "a" will not be the same as the one in "b" and further that
"b" is always changing wrt the grv/inertia field.
The point: Unlike a falling object wrt earth, (apple from tree...aka.....free
fall) In a orbit you must have, need and cannot just consider the earth's
gravitational/inertial feild to pull the apple toward the earth but you also
need a secondary force (inertial) to keep the propensity for the satilite to
fly off into space in such a way that those two "forces" acting against each
other are in balance with each other so as to have a stable orbit. If the only
field present was grav then what keeps the satellite in orbit from falling to
the earth..we say..inertia...ah but inertia is gravity.............. so which
grav field and from where is acting on the satellite in the opisite direction
of the pull of the gravity coming from the earth?...
Explain how a circular/ continuous arc/ elliptical orbit of a near star
different from a circular/ continuous arc/ elliptical trajectory wrt a distant
star..... inertia is the force of gravity acting on a body in GTR .... it is
due to those inertial fields that we observably measure when we detect any
accelerations ..How do we isolate the gravitational/ inertial field of a near
body from all the others out there that supposedly cause the reaction (inertia)
in the first place? If we do not isolate them from each other, then a body has
the same orientation to those distant external inertial fields that cause
inertia whether or not it is in a orbit. But, this begs the question, if those
external inertial fields are the cause of inertia then how does the inertial
field of the body that is being orbited prevent those fields from doing the
same thing they do when a body is not in a orbit, particularly since those
distant fields are supposedly the cause of the inertial reaction. If however on
the other hand we claim that the inertial /gravitational field that creates the
inertial effects only pertains to the "Inertial reference frame" such that the
distant mass/grav/inertial fields do not significantly affect the inertial
field of the "inertial reference frame" thus preventing the detection of the
free fall in that inertial field/ ref frame.....Then what keeps the orbit of
the bodies from collapsing in on each other?!........ If gravity is the force
pulling both bodies toward each other then where is the other vector force (
gravity/ inertial force that causes the bodies to move away from each other)
coming from to balance the motions so as to create a stable orbit?.. If the
inertial field of the distance stars do not significantly affect the inertial
state of the body in orbit (it’’s "inertial reference frame") then while
gravity is pulling the two bodies toward each other how exactly is gravity also
the source of the inertial momentum away from that body that supposedly is in
balance with the pull from that body to create the orbit!? And if the inertial
fields of distant bodies does affect the "inertial ref frame" so as to produce
the inertial force that keeps the propensity of the orbiting body to move away
from the body being orbited,...... then how are the inertial affects due to
those distant inertial fields prevented from deomonstrating a detectable
acceleration in orbit while at the same time providing the inertial force to
keep the whole thing working? Does a straight line trajectory wrt thoes distant
inertial feilds produce a different effect then when the trajectory is a arc?
if not why would a orbit matter where or not we could detect changes wrt thoese
exact same distant inertial feilds that clearly demonstrated detectable
accelerations when not moving in a arc?.......whether or not a body is at rest
or in motion it is the distant inertial fields that cause the detection of
motion or acceleration in the first place. How exactly do you define a free
fall and at what point do the inertial fields that create the inertial effects
(detection of acceleration) and at the same time prevent it? Free fall not a
detection of acceleration is by definition changes wrt those same exact distant
inertial/ gravitational fields. If you do not isolate those fields from your
inertial one you claim we are in free fall around then there is no logical
reason why those distant fields would be prevented from giving us a detectable
acceleration in large arc verse a small one? Here is what you are left with.
explaining, how a orbit or continuous arc trajectory of the body wrt those
distant inertial fields is any different then..... a continuous arc trajectory
wrt those distant inertial fields?! Are you claiming that if the arc makes a
complete circuit then the effects of inertia due to those distant inertial
fields not felt?!... An Acceleration is a measure of the inertial effect (the
change of the state of motion wrt any given body). It is changes wrt those
distant grav/inertia fields that is supposedly the cause of inertia so how
exactly does the size of the arc or shape of a bodies trajectory wrt those
distant fields determine whether or not we can detect the inertial effects?
The reasons given thus far have been based on the equivalence principle. ,
However in your last post you attempt to appeal to Newtonian
dynamics?..............
A. Newton does not claim that a acceleration in free fall cannot be detected..
B. Newton did not give us the equivalence principle..
C. Newton accepted absolute motion and thus in Newtonian Dynamics motion & or
the detection thereof is not dependent upon a/any inertial reference frames,
real, imaginary or otherwise...Therefore, the fact that you assume any given
inertial reference frame means nothing wrt the arguments before us....why?
..because it is the nature of the relationship of Gravity, acceleration motion
and inertia not any "ref frame" that would have to affect whether or not we
could detect any such free fall accelerations......so Im not sure what your
attempting to demonstration here with/about Newtonian dynamics and or any
inertial reference frames Newton addresses.
You say a orbit is in free fall and we know that we are in orbit because we
can detect the change in orientation but the acceleration of that orbit cannot
be detected.
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