Philip M
I've been at this now for about 11 hours and I don't have a clearer picture for
you. As you're about to get up -- and I'm about to go to bed -- this will have
to do for now. I'll try again tomorrow.
I've attached the illustration I've been working on but it really needs motion
for the mathematically challenged (you and I) or vector maths for all the rest.
Paul D
----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism list <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, 26 May, 2008 8:02:35 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: World/Moon system
just read my reply Paul It took so long to write I just noticed the beginning
when it came backk I put in comment s more than questions.. Oh well You got a
thick hide.. not like Jack..
----- Original Message -----
From: philip madsen
To: geocentrism list
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 5:24 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: World/Moon system
First up Paul I did not perceive any inadequacies.. I just did not percieve
anything.. You gave me too much to visualise, and without any objective up
front. I will put some questions into the text..
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Deema
To: Geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 5:32 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: World/Moon system
Greetings all.
Due to perceived inadequacies, I here submit for your consideration a revised
version of my earlier post -- From Paul Deema Fri May 23 15:16:51 2008.
World/Moon system From Neville Jones Mon May 19 20:02:46 2008
"Diagrams, comments, thoughts, one-way tickets to the Gulag, ... toss them all
into the pot and let's see what comes out."
Version 2.
First a few simplifications -
The Earth's orbit is a circle; the Moon's orbit is a circle; The Moon's orbit
lies in the plane of the ecliptic; the Earth/Moon barycentre is at the centre
of gravity of the Earth.
That picture I get.. You are making simple assumptions.. but why put the
barycentre where you did.. ? Is it going to figure in this?
Next, some approximate dimensions -
One day = 86400 s; one year = 365.25days; the Earth's orbit has a radius of 150
* 10^6 km; the Moon's orbit has a radius of 384 * 10^3 km; the Earth revolves
at 360/365.25 = 0.986 deg/day; the Moon revolves at 360/27.322 = 13.2 deg/day;
the Earth has an orbital velocity of 30 km/s; the Moon has an orbital velocity
of 1.0 km/s.
A body in orbit about the Sun at a distance 150 * 10^6 km, which does not
rotate on its axis (inclined at 0 deg wrt the plane of its orbit) experiences a
'day' of one year duration with the Sun rising over the western horizon and
setting over the eastern horizon. The shadow of a sundial will record a
traverse of 0.986 deg/day from East to West. Not having experienced a sundial
, I'll take your word for that.. You mean that the sun will traverse the sky
.A simpler transposition..
Should the body of the previous paragraph rotate in a prograde direction on its
axis once per year, then a sundial shadow will neither advance nor retreat from
a fixed position.
You mean the sun will not traverse the sky, but remain fixed in position.. By
Joshua thats good!
Again the same body, but rotating in the same direction at a rate of twice per
year -- the shadow will now advance from West to East at a rate of 0.986
deg/day.
Now you baffled me.but then prograde might mean something I don't know.. We
are still prograde, so if the rpm is doubled, There are two days in the time
there was once only one day. the new day is half a year long. the angular
motion of the sun traversing the sky will be faster.. I think
Change the body's rotation rate to once per 27.322 days ie 13.2 deg/day and the
shadow will move from East to West at a rate of 13.2 - 0.986 = 12.214 deg/day.
This second term -- 0.986 -- is the 360 deg of the orbit divided by the number
of days to achieve one revolution. This body will have an orbital velocity of
30 km/s.
Now I need a diagram.. If you make the body rotate once, thats one day.. How do
you get 27 days out of it.. sorry but I could find no cohesion here.. my fault
of course, but you are talking to my abilities I hope. That paragraph is a
total loss to me, and the rest. What was your objective in presenting this
exercise.. 27 . 322 days???
A simple statement such as at the end of this experiment you will understand
bla bla.. at the beginning would perhaps help.. But 2 paragraphs down I get
your plot... so down to the meat..
If we increase the orbital velocity to 31 km/s, then the time for one orbit is
reduced to 365.25 * 30/31 = 353.468 days and the orbital radial velocity
increases to 1.018 deg/day. If the body is still rotating at once per 27.322
days, then the shadow will advance at a rate of 13.2 - 1.018 = 12.182 deg/day.
At 29 km/s orbital velocity, the corresponding figures are 365.25 * 30/29 =
377.845 days orbital period and 0.953 deg/day revolution. Shadow advance then,
will be 13.2 - 0.953 = 12.247 deg/day. The difference is therefore 12.247 -
12.182 = 0.065 deg/day -- an eminently measurable difference.
Totally confusing but I never did like maths. Algebra ok May be algebra would
have helped.
Now the purists may cry foul because we all know that if an orbiting body is
travelling faster, then its orbit radius will be less, and conversely, if
slower then the radius will be greater. However, if the body we have been
discussing is the Moon and it is orbiting the Earth at a distance of 384 * 10^3
km, and the Earth/Moon barycentre is orbiting the Sun, then at full moon it
will be travelling at Earth orbital velocity plus Moon orbital velocity, while
at new moon it will be travelling at Earth orbital velocity minus Moon orbital
velocity. Its average velocity would therefore be 30 km/s. Under these
conditions we should see the rate of advance of the shadow at new moon to be
0.065 deg/day faster than at full moon.
If I knew where the full moon and the New moon were at , and I never did,
except it was always never in the sky when I looked for it..
Hey you bible believin geocentrists, God got that wrong didn't he , if the
Bible is literal.?. This lesser light He tells us is for our illumination,
"to illumine the night," is never there most nights. Doesn't that language
sound more poetic than literally speaking .fact? . Sorry Paul, a moment needed
to help poor Jack.. Now Jack will say I'm being off side, and nasty to God
with this sort of talk..
Not so! I'm saying that because the Bible says Jesus set up a church to guide
us in our understanding of Scripture..
Now back to Paul.
Should the Universe however be centred on the Earth with the Moon and the Sun
orbiting it, the Moon's radial velocity would be constant and so the rate at
which the shadow advances would be constant.
I think you ignored or missed something. You insisted above for the exercise a
moon orbit of a circle. The relative velocities to each other in either
scenario are the same. We already tried this a year ago to prove our case and
flunked.. I think that was what caused Allen to go insane looking for a
vibrating gravity. The moons radial velocity relative to the earth is constant
in the helio system.. This is where Allen added to his insanity by bringing in
frames of reference. Perhaps you and Allen are soul mates!
A real test would of course need to take into account the fact that both orbits
in question are in fact ellipses, that they are not in the same plane and that
the orientation of the Luna orbit major axis remains fixed while its angle to
the Sun is constantly varying. I'm sure there will be other things which have
not occurred to me but I am also sure that -- if I have the mechanics properly
sorted -- this effect is eminently measurable. That we cannot immediately rush
out and do the experiment matters not -- science is in the habit of making
predictions which routinely take decades or centuries to demonstrate or
destroy.
I'm lucky I will not need to wait that long.. I'm assuming of course that even
the HELL bound will have access to all truth, in that universal day of truth
when all sins are revealed to all. on Judgement Day. Surely He will not be so
cruel as to not let us know where or why we erred ( in science) and if there is
life on Mars or not.
Finally, the Earth/Moon barycentre is not at the Earth's centre of gravity --
there is an offset of about 4700 km. While the effect is greatly reduced, it
seems to me that the rate of shadow advance could, under these conditions, also
be shown to differ slightly between new moon and full moon on the Earth.
I know .. Thats why I asked the question first up at the top! In any scenario
you presented,I know, not assume, I know, that the shadow timing is the exact
same time as observed and measured. It will be correct in either calculating
system, geocentric or heliocentric. Why? because it is observed and timed.
Bernies funny figures not withstanding.. You cannot leave out the unknown
quantities of inertia and aether....., and thus till they are understood and
figured in, no real explanation is possible.. except on Judgement day, if any
soul, good or bad would be interested any more.. I hope I am. I do not want to
be something I am not.. said the grub to the butterfly.... I mean it!!!!
Philip and Paul D
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