[geocentrism] Re: The Big Bang
- From: "Dr. Neville Jones" <ntj005@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:32:55 +0100 (BST)
Dear Rob,
In his video presentation to students at ICR entitled, "The Origin of Life,"
which I thoroughly recommend to anyone who has not got a copy, Dr. Duane Gish
states that "first of all, we acknowledge that energy is not a problem; we have
plenty of energy coming from the Sun." He then goes on to show that the same
energy source will obliterate amino acids in a "primordal atmosphere of methane
and ammonia" even more quickly than they could be formed by lightning strikes.
And that the only way of saving such amino acids as were produced by Dr.
Stanley Miller, was by way of a trap. Thus, your own criticism could be
directed back at you.
Furthermore, perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought Jack was talking about the "Big
Bang," which tends to imply that he was applying the 2nd law of thermodynamics
to the universe as a whole, in this instance. I think you will agree that, by
definition, the universe is a closed system. Jack's point seemed to me to be
one of the undeniable order we observe in the universe and that, therefore, how
could this order come about in a closed system from a "Big Bang"? The "Big
Bang" itself could not have produced any, for that would be contrary to all
theories of explosions.
Your point about the tomato having seeds inside it is, of course, straight from
Genesis.
As regards Jack's point about matter being created (transformed is a better
word) from energy, I accept your observation. Ultimately, though, matter and
energy has to come from somewhere. Again, Genesis tells us that God created
everything that there is ex nihilo. The naturalistic alternative is that it all
was initially contained within a mathematical singularity. More than this comes
down to faith and personal belief, and in this way Jack's position, to which
you make the comment, "Argument from Personal Incredulity is a risky one to
make," is completely justified, because, ultimately, you are going to have to
come down to exactly the same line.
(I'm glad you stayed on.)
Neville.
"Glover, Rob" <Rob.Glover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Jack Lewis wrote:
"The question of the veracity of the Big Bang is dealt with in attachments
that I can only send to you privately, since this forum does not allow
attachments. I you let me have your e-mail address or you prefer I could get
Neville to pass them on to you. I understand there is a problem with the
forum getting your postings."
If the articles are on the web, you could just post a link to the forum and
I can go and look them up.
Jack Lewis wrote:
"The second law of thermodynamcs, in simple terms, states that order tends
to disorder, or chaos if left alone. This is the reverse of evolution."
I'm afraid that's not the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The rule you quote
is a straw-man law commonly cited by Creationists, it's a part of the Law
with a crucial element missing. If it has a name at all it's probably
'Gish's Law' as Duane P. Gish regularly comes out with it.
The Second Law is actually phraseable as "The entropy of a closed system
cannot decrease." There are other ways of phrasing it, but the crucial
element is 'closed system'. Philip missed this as well. Creationists like to
misinterpret the 2nd law to say that all things invariably progress from
order to disorder.
However, they neglect the fact that the Earth is not a closed system. The
Sun provides more than enough energy to drive things. If a mature tomato
plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should
anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can't have more usable
energy still? Order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too.
Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and
lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature.
None require an intelligent program to achieve that order. In any nontrivial
system with lots of energy flowing through it, you are almost certain to
find order arising somewhere in the system. Evolution has no problem with
the real 2nd Law. The 2nd Law is simply that this cannot continue
indefinitely. One day the Sun will die, the Earth will run down, all
geological and life processes will have come to an end.
Jack Lewis wrote:
"I do not believe that matter can be created from energy without
supernatural intervention. I would have to look at the experiments you spoke
of in some detail, and hope that I understand it. Perhaps Neville could help
in this area?"
Argument from Personal Incredulity is a risky one to make, as It can lead
you to all kinds of false conclusions. I find it hard to believe that
anything can live inside the rocks of the Antarctic dry valleys, but it
somehow does anyway! It should set off warning bells if anyone argues from a
start point of 'I find it hard to see..." or 'It is difficult to believe'...
Rob.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Lewis
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 11/09/2004 09:46
Subject: [geocentrism] The Big Bang
Dear Rob,
It took me a while to figure out who sent the response to my e-mail
which I sent to Philip. I hope I've worked it correctly.
The question of the veracity of the Big Bang is dealt with in
attachments that I can only send to you privately, since this forum does
not allow attachments. I you let me have your e-mail address or you
prefer I could get Neville to pass them on to you. I understand there is
a problem with the forum getting your postings.
The second law of thermodynamcs, in simple terms, states that order
tends to disorder, or chaos if left alone. This is the reverse of
evolution.
I do not believe that matter can be created from energy without
supernatural intervention. I would have to look at the experiments you
spoke of in some detail, and hope that I understand it. Perhaps Neville
could help in this area?
Jack Lewis
Jack Lewis
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