Nick, I think Neville has been fair so far, in allowing the debate to go as far as it did. I think you answered the case well, and it needs no further elaboration, except in private perhaps. We both know that Pride is a difficult adversary, and usually to argue against ego is a lost cause. Ours is the more difficult, as we are confined to argue from a state of submission to authority, a real authority of an Earthly government of men, whereas our adversaries can claim only the authority of their own intellect, with the hope of Direct Divine assistance, either to themselves or to other men in whom they trust, who may or may not claim Divine help. As to the statement Neville made re the Catholic Churches position on geocentrism. I can agree with him only this much. Doctrinely the Church has never ever changed the traditional teaching of geocentrism as we express it here. However over the centuries it has certainly compromised this doctrine by allowing churchmen, even Popes to accept both evolution and heliocentrism as a possibility. Hence most have decided to accept error, and take the side of misguided science. It is important for Neville and our other protestant friends, to realise that these expressions are private personal beliefs, and even though it came from a Pope, they cannot be accepted by any real Catholic as the Church defining a doctrine. They simply cannot redefine a traditional defined dogma.... These are just further contributions to the general apostasy in the world today. I look forward to further discussion on the angular momentum. ----- Original Message -----