[geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus
- From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 17:43:09 -0700 (PDT)
Few Notes on the LXX Septuagint Vs MT Masoretic Texts your "Original Hebrew"
Christ Quote in Mathew 21: 16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say?
And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes
and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
MT Masoretic text Psalm 8:2. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast
thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the
enemy and the avenger
.LXX Septuagint text Psalm 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast
thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down
the enemy and avenger.
Paul's ?non existaint? quote in Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the
firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship
him.MT Masoretic text Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people:
for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his
adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
LXX Septuagint text Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let
all the angels of God worship him;(not found in MT) rejoice ye Gentiles, with
his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him;(not found
in MT) for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance,
and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and
the Lord shall purge the land of his people. Note: Also compare these verses
and context to ?rejoice ye Heavens? in Revelation 12:12
Apostle Paul's quote in 1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O
grave, where is thy victory?
MT Masoretic text Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave;
I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will
be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
LXX Septuagint text Hosea 13:14 I will deliver them out of the power of Hades,
and will redeem them from death: where is thy penalty, O death? O Hades, where
is thy sting? comfort is hidden from mine eyes.
Apostle Paul's quote in 1 Corinthians 2:9. But as it is written, Eye hath not
seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things
which God hath prepared for them that love him.
MT Masoretic text Isaiah 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have
not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside
thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
LXX Septuagint text Isaiah 64: From of old we have not heard, neither have our
eyes seen a God beside thee, and thy works which thou wilt perform to them that
wait for mercy
Mat. 3:3. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The
voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his
paths straight.
MT Masoretic Isa. 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare
ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our
God???..What is being made strait is located in the desert rather than making a
way for the lord from the desert.
LXX Septuagint Isa 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness,
Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God
Mat. 12:21. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
MT Masoretic Isa. 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set
judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
LXX Septuagint Isa. 42:4 He shall shine out, and shall not be discouraged,
until he have set judgement on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles
trust.
Mat. 13: 14-15. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith,
By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see,
and shall not perceive: 15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their
ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time
they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should
understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
MT Masoretic Isa. 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed,
but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10. Make
the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with
their heart, and convert, and be healed.
LXX Septuagint Isa. 6:9-10 Ye shall hear indeed, but ye
shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. 10
For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of
hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted,
and I should heal them?????.In changing the first sentence from two commands to
the people into a prophetic description of the peo
ple, "Ye
shall surely hear, but shall not understand; ye shall surely see, but shall
not perceive." He also follows the Septuagint in changing the second sentence
from two commands to the prophet into a description of the present condition of
the people: "This people's heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of
hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest they see...?
Mat. 15:8-9. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth
me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9. But in vain they do
worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
MT Masoretic Isa. 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw
near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed
their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of
men:??..reads obscurely, sounds like the worship of God is but a commandment of
men. The phrase, "but in vain do they worship me,? is not found
LXX Septuagint Isa. 29:13 And the Lord has said,
This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their
lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching
the commandments and doctrines of men.
Mat. 15:8-9. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth
me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9. But in vain they do
worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
MT Masoretic Isa. 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw
near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed
their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of
men:??..reads obscurely, sounds like the worship of God is but a commandment of
men. The phrase, "but in vain do they worship me,? is not found
LXX Septuagint Isa. 29:13 And the Lord has said,
This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their
lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching
the commandments and doctrines of men.
Mark 1:2. See remarks on Mat. 3:3
Mark 7:6-7. See remarks on Mat. 15:8-9
Luke 3:4. See remarks on Mat. 3:3
Luke 3:5-6. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be
brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall
be made smooth; 6. And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
MT Masoretic Isa. 40:4-5 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain
and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the
rough places plain: 5. And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all
flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it???..
Filled and Exalted can give different meanings
LXX Septuagint Isa. 40:4-5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain
and hill shall be brought low: and all the crooked ways shall become straight,
and the rough places plains. 5 And the glory of the Lord shall appear, and all
flesh shall see the salvation of God: for the Lord has spoken it
Luke 4:18. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to
preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to
preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to
set at liberty them that are bruised,
MT Masoretic Isa. 61:1. The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the
Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to
bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening
of the prison to them that are bound;??.. There is no mention of giving sight
to the Blind here
LXX Septuagint Isa. 61:2 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has
anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the
broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to
the blind; 2 to declare the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of
recompence; to comfort all that mourn;
Luke 3:35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was
the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, 36.
Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son
of Sem, which
was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,?.
MT Masoretic Gen 10:24. And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber?...
11:10. These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and
begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:??. 12. And Arphaxad lived five and
thirty years, and begat Salah:?This give a Completely different chronology!
LXX Septuagint Gen10:24 And Arphaxad begot Cainan, and Cainan begot Sala. And
Sala begot Heber???.11:10 And these are the generations of Sem: and Sem was a
hundred years old when he begot Arphaxad, the second year after the flood. ??.
12 And Arphaxad lived a hundred and thirty-five years, and begot Cainan. ???...
And Cainan lived a hundred and thirty years and begot Sala; and Canaan lived
after he had begotten Sala, three hundred and thirty years, and begot sons and
daughters, and died. 14 And Sala lived an hundred and thirty years, and begot
Heber.
Acts 2:26. 26. Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad;
moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
MT Masoretic Psa. 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my
flesh also shall rest in hope.
LXX Septuagint Pas 16:9 Therefore my heart rejoiced an my tongue
exulted; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Acts 7:14. 14. Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all
his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.
MT Masoretic Gen. Exod 1:5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of
Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.and Exod. 1:5 has
"seventy." Luke follows the Septuagint with "seventy-five.? This is a
Completely different number of people!
LXX
Septuagint Exod 1:5 But Joseph was in Egypt. And all the souls born of Jacob
were seventy-five.
Acts 7:43. Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god
Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away
beyond Babylon.
MT Masoretic Amos 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and
Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
LXX Septuagint Amos
5:26 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god
Raephan, the images of them which ye made for yourselves.
Acts 8:33. In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall
declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
MT Masoretic Isa. 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who
shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
for the transgression of my people was he stricken. The action roles are
reversed and renders this as Jesus being taken from prison and away from
judgment rather than his Judgment being taken away..He was let out of prison?
LXX Septuagint Isa 53:8 In his humiliation his
judgment was taken away: who shall declare his generation? for his life is
taken away from the earth: because of the iniquities of my people he was led to
death.
Acts 13:41. Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in
your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it
unto you.
MT Masoretic Habakkuk 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder
marvellously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe,
though it be told you. Uses a different term that can has a different
meaning and does not include perish
LXX Septuagint Habakkuk 1:5 Behold, ye despisers, and look, and wonder
marvelously, and vanish: for I work a work in your days, which ye will in no
wise believe, though a man declare it to you.
Acts 15:17. 17. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the
Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these
things. 18. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
MT Masoretic Amos 9:12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all
the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this. Uses
a different term that gives it a different meaning
LXX Septuagint Amos 9:12 ?.that the remnant of men, and all the
Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord who
does all these things.
Acts 28:26-27. 26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall
hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27.
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of
hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be
converted, and I should heal them?????Here Luke follows the Septuagint exactly.
MT Masoretic Isa. 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye
indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut
their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and
understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed????. Here it sounds
like not understanding, seeing and perceiving are commands rather than
foreknowledge of prophecy.
LXX Septuagint Isa. 6:8-10???..
Go, and say to this people, 9.Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not
understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. 10 For the
heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and
their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear
with the
ir ears,
and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them...?
??????.
Rom. 2:24. 24. For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through
you, as it is written.
MT Masoretic Isa. 52:5 5. Now therefore, what have I here, saith the Lord,
that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to
howl, saith the Lord; and my name continually every day is blasphemed. Does
not ID the Jews as the Cause of Blasphemy
LXX Septuagint Isa. 52:5 And now
why are ye here? Thus saith the Lord, Because my people was taken for nothing,
wonder ye and howl. Thus saith the Lord, On account of you my name is
continually blasphemed among the Gentiles.
Rom 3:4. 4. God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is
written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome
when thou art judged.
MT Masoretic Psa. 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this
evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be
clear when thou Judgest?.. The difference is the ?who? that is doing the
judging
LXX Septuagint Psa 51:4 Against thee only have I sinned, and
done evil before thee: that thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and
mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Rom 3:14. 14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
MT Masoretic Psa. 10:7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and Fraud:
under his tongue is mischief and vanity. Cusing and bitterness covers more
ground. The term bitterness can include much more broader rage of things andis
more general then just deceit and Fuaud.
LXX Septuagint Psa 10:7 Whose mouth is full of cursing, and bitterness, and
fraud: under his tongue are trouble and pain.
Rom 9:28. 28. For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness:
because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
MT Masoretic Isa. 10:22-23 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the
sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow
with righteousness. 23. For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption,
even determined, in the midst of all the land.
?????. It seems to say, a consumption/ destruction has or will be decreed, that
will be overflowing with righteousness and that consumption has been
determined to be made in the midst of all the land. There is almost no
similarity here.
LXX Septuagint Isa 10:22-23 And though the people of Israel be as the sand of
the sea, a remnant of them shall be saved. 23 He will finish the work, and cut
it short in righteousness: because the Lord will make a short work in all the
world.
Statement From the LXX Septuagint not found in MT Masortetic
MT Masoretic Joshua 24:30 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance
in Timnathserah, which is in mount Ephraim, on the north side of the hill of
Gaash.
LXX Septuagint Joshua
24:30 And they buried him by the borders of his inheritance in Thamnasarach in
the mount of Ephraim, northward of the mount of Galaad: there they put with him
into the tomb in which they buried him, the knives of stone with which he
circumcised the children of Israel in Galgala, when he brought them out of
Egypt, as the Lord appointed them; and there they are to this day.
Ten miles north-west of Bethel lies Kef'r Ishu'a, the 'Village of Joshua'.
Professor Werner Keller states that in the the neighbouring hillsides contain
some rock tombs. In 1870, in one of the sepulchres on the north side of the
hill, a large number of stone knives were found... 'The Bible As History' Pg
163
......................AS FOR THE LAW............
Deuteronomy 4:1. Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto
the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in
and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you. 2. Ye
shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish
ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I
command you
If Justification were through the law and levitical priesthood then your own
attempt at justification via the law condemns you! Because you do not keep it
nor are there any more Levitical priest to perform the rituals commanded by
the law for you?.. and you are all unclean!?. Nowhere does JESUS state that you
should keep some of the law but not all of it? he never told his disciples to
extend or continue to observe the Mosaic law. You MADE THAT UP! Your selective
approach to the law is scriptural baseless notwithstanding the complete
impossibility to perform it???.IF you had understood the prophets, new covenant
and the law?.you would not be making assertions about people and things for
which the only information that exist about them are the very scripture you
reject! Dan states plainly that the confirmation of the covenant would bring
to an end the Sacrifice and offerings and Jesus talked abut that new covenant,
He never talked about continuation and extenuation of the l
aw nor
did he explain what portions of the law to keep and you cannot keep the law by
the terms of the law. Then you are all still then lost if justification were to
be found in the law and their would have been no need for a Messiah in the
first place!????.you have no understanding of the prophets or the teachings of
Christ if you had you would realize that Jesus stated HE was lord of the
Sabbath?that all Authority and power both in heaven and in earth were HIS??
Even Moses himself stated that he would come and that they would listen to him
rather than Moses, by whom they received the OT law. ?.Jesus gave commandment
for a NEW COVENANT not a continuation or extension of the old you put words
into Jesus mouth that are NOWHHEWRE to be found while along ignore what both HE
and the Prophets spoke of regarding his mission what & he would accomplish to
do and how he would do it! Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchisideck
not the levites! Psalms 110:4. The Lord hath sworn, and w
ill not
repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The OT law
gave nothing about priest outside the Levites. Christ came and delivered the
NEW COVENANT and he Being of an entirely different priesthood??the LAW spoke
nothing concerning these things how can you even begin to assert that Jesus
instructed a continuation of the OT law. Your comments about the law and the
Messiah and his apostles are void of ANY SCRIPTURE or understanding of them! ..
You can?t keep part of the law and claim to keep it??... Your assertions are
inconsistent with scripture?. Merely making assertions about something proves
nothing! Open your eyes!?You have not demonstrated a single inconstancy in the
teaching of Paul and Christ or any of the other apostles or the prophets.. you
can?t reject the prophets and claim to be a follower of Jesus yet this is
exactly what your arguments do!
If continuity of the scriptures is dependent upon the continuation of the OT
law you are in a lot of trouble unless you selectively decide what you are
going to obey??..You can not be a follower of Jesus and adhere to the law if
you adhere to the prophets then you must accept Jesus and lay aside the law?You
understand not the scriptures the law or the prophets? if if you don?t
understand them what makes you thing you understand anything concerning the
Messiah.. I can show you the DIRECT VERBATUM correlation from scripture to
scripture, all you keep doing is asserting things for which you do not quote
properly or understand at all by the phantom context you apply or exclude
altogether?.. only if you accept your premise can you reach your conclusions
but as you have no prove of any of your assertions your logic is circularly
flawed against all the Law the Prophets and Jesus teachings.
I hope you carefully reconsider the law and the Prophets and what they mean
before you continue down this path any further?...But at the end of the day I
accept that you have to make that decision for yourself, and live with your
understanding.
Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
( N) Seems like I have to quote it to you again, just to show that I did not
miss it:
( A) Merely quoting scripture and asserting that it means something other than
what it plainly states is evidence of nothing, except your error. ......until
all will be fulfilled." Qualifies the first part of the verse?You did miss it,
or otherwise ignore it?s effect on that verse........ You failed to address it.
You know very well that you have blatantly ignored the meaning of that verse,
and taken the things in it out of context.
( N) Tell me, if all has been fulfilled, as you mistakenly claim, then why are
we still awaiting the fulfilment of certain prophecies? Why "all WILL be
fulfilled"?
( A) Your further comments about awaiting prophesy.. ....Mat 11:13... "For all
the prophets and the law prophesied UNTILL John. Jesus Qualifies the prophesies
that HE WAS TO FULFILL, that pertain to HIS MISSION and the NEW COVENANT and
JOHN THE BABTIST was THE LAST ONE!....... What prophesies are you referring to
that we are waiting for?......... Revelation was not written by John the
Baptist, it was written after him.. to the Christians. He was the LAST of the
LAW and PROPHETS in the context that Jesus. Again you demonstrate you inability
to handle the word of God properly.
( N) I do not appreciate receiving postings of 1.5 Mb, so I'm not going to
follow your example
( A) I will respect your concerns about attachments. and keep them to the
limits you specify if i need to demonstrate........ However, You have yet to
establish that he was not a Apostle. Merely making assertions based on a false
premises or one you have yet to established, does not prove or validate any
point. Your reasoning is circular based on a false premise in the first place.
What is being discussed is not a matter of my opinion but rather your
interpretations, positions assumptions and assertions external a scripture and
context. . I have addressed your every point consistent with the text and
scripture, and you have failed to show otherwise further, you have failed to
address any of your inconsistencies or obvious misrepresen tations of scripture
that I have pointed out to you. Nor can you address the ?original Hebrew? issue
because you do not know what you are talking about. ?.You can always find
someone to tickle your ears.
"Dr. Neville Jones" <ntj005@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
(N) Although you have placed your own interpretation on "all [being]
fulfilled," yet your interpretation cannot be correct, because heaven and earth
are still here.
( A) Again, you missed that verse!?.It did not say " HEAVEN AND EARTH will pass
away BEFORE they are FULLFILED"?????. it states that heaven and earth are not
going to pass away UNTILL all is fulfilled? ???.THEY will be FULFILLED BEFORE
HEAVEN and EARTH pass away! You missed the verse entirely!?
Seems like I have to quote it to you again, just to show that I did not miss it:
At that time Yeshuwa' said to his disciples: "Do not think that I am come to
annul the Torah or the Prophets, but to fulfil. Truly I say to you that until
heaven and earth pass away not one letter or dot shall be abolished from the
Torah or the Prophets, until all will be fulfilled." (Mt. 5:17-18, Original
Hebrew.)
Tell me, if all has been fulfilled, as you mistakenly claim, then why are we
still awaiting the fulfilment of certain prophecies? Why "all WILL be
fulfilled"?
FURTHER?.. There is no such thing as "Original Hebrew" for the New
testament!!!!?
I'm afraid that there is, no matter how many exclamation marks you decide to
use. See pages 47 and 48 of the "Testimony of the apostle, Matthew," on the
website. (By the way, I note that you are calling him an apostle, yet you
recently asked me where I got that from.)
Those who make statements about the "Original Hebrew" in the context you use
it, are willfully ignorant or willfully deceitful!??...............it
immediately follows that YOUR entire "understanding" of the scriptures is wrong.
You are entitled to your opinion. You are certainly placing many
interpretations on scriptures for someone who claimed a few weeks ago that they
did not require any. For example, Saul of Tarsus claims to be your holy father
(or "pope"). Yeshuwa' states, call no one Father but YeHVaH. Saul of Tarsus
states that you can eat anything you like, but Yeshuwa' states that the law
still holds, which means that you certainly cannot eat anything you like. ... I
could go on, but I do not appreciate receiving postings of 1.5 Mb, so I'm not
going to follow your example.
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