Me in blue Allen is trying to co-erce Paul to accept his word, as the word of God, as an acceptable proof that this world is static, without any valid scientific reason to support this position...No, only that there is NO or NONE Scientific or logically valid reason(s) for any other view regardless of whether or not or which one you think it is true.. Not even a reasonable theory, because Allen presumes that Gods word is all that is needed to support the illusion he has in front of his eyes. The question of what is and is not a "illusion" is the one that keeps getting begged when you assert any view other then WYSIWYG without a valid evidence to that effect ..which as I have stated before can only come from one?s imagination or some other WYSIWYG experience....hint: a WYSIWYG must be relevant before it can invalidate not after....... Isn't that true Allen? And that will not work.. God had to send Ananias to take the scales from Pauls eyes before he was able to SEE ...."who rose up and was baptised, and received the Holy Ghost." 1.I don?t have a problem with scripture as proof but I am showing that there is "reason" with or without it.....same holds true for the existence of God...but knowledge of existiace of God as well as GC itself will not save anyone from hell..... 2. Before proof of the GC cosmos can be viewed by folk of the HC/AC persuasion they must first understand that the HC/AC view is not even a logically plausible path to start to argue from or even pursue since by its very "logical" constructs it is unprovable by virtue of the fact it attempts to use what no one has in reality to ascertain what reality truly is. philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: "But the reality is a presumption in both cases". The reality is fixed, but the perception of that reality by humans is variable ( correct or incorrect ). Bernie Yep.. I should have said that what they think or call their reality based on what each of them can see or observe or measure, is a presumption in both cases, even if one of them is lucky enough to be true. Now following on, even though My God is real and he tells me that my world is static, this cannot be accepted scientifically by a Paul who has no God, as he is also confronted by the man on B who tells him the exact same thing that it is his world that is static, and that A's God is false. Allen is trying to co-erce Paul to accept his word, as the word of God, as an acceptable proof that this world is static, without any valid scientific reason to support this position. Not even a reasonable theory, because Allen presumes that Gods word is all that is needed to support the illusion he has in front of his eyes. Isn't that true Allen? And that will not work.. God had to send Ananias to take the scales from Pauls eyes before he was able to SEE ...."who rose up and was baptised, and received the Holy Ghost." Philip.