"But the reality is a presumption in both cases". The reality is fixed, but the perception of that reality by humans is variable ( correct or incorrect ). Bernie Yep.. I should have said that what they think or call their reality based on what each of them can see or observe or measure, is a presumption in both cases, even if one of them is lucky enough to be true. Now following on, even though My God is real and he tells me that my world is static, this cannot be accepted scientifically by a Paul who has no God, as he is also confronted by the man on B who tells him the exact same thing that it is his world that is static, and that A's God is false. Allen is trying to co-erce Paul to accept his word, as the word of God, as an acceptable proof that this world is static, without any valid scientific reason to support this position. Not even a reasonable theory, because Allen presumes that Gods word is all that is needed to support the illusion he has in front of his eyes. Isn't that true Allen? And that will not work.. God had to send Ananias to take the scales from Pauls eyes before he was able to SEE ...."who rose up and was baptised, and received the Holy Ghost." Philip.