Allen, perhaps you are one of the "greys" the good aliens from outer space. Sometimes your reasoning is very alien to me. But then when I was young, my friends mother said to me, all electricians were mad. So it may be my fault. So in an attempt at cross cultural comunication, let me test your reasoning against my own, to see if there is some compatibility, that I might understand what you are saying. Take this simple example I gave to Paul, to which he agreed.. I want your aquiesence, which would be a good starting point for consensus, and further developement ... Philip: In free space if two worlds A and B are coming together to collide at 100mph, no one can say what the real motions are out of an infinite number of variations which may be: A is stationary, A is moving towards B, A is moving away from B or B is stationary, B is moving toward A B is moving away from A. And all this infinite number of variables must have the resultant combination that will be a 100mph collision. There is no fixed point of reference. Thus one is assumed. I who live on A can chose my world as static. You on B can chose that your world is static. Nothing changes mathmatically, it wil be a 100mph collision. But the reality is a presumption in both cases, and niether world is static. Therefore not a proven reality. Paul: Agreed. I don't know of any dissenting view. Allen? How say you? Philip.