[geocentrism] Re: Psalm 19/ Christ 2nd Return
- From: allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 07:34:49 -0700 (PDT)
Phil, please demontrate something other then how you and others "feel"...we all
"feel".... Dont think the false doctrine of futurisim is ok by appealing to
"people think" even if it is most people think...ge most people are going to
hell too and they think they are alright.......maybe that thats the problem
"people feel" too much and don't let the scritpure talk enough.....I'm going to
continue to demonstrate the postion from scripture and put down every jargument
that exaltes itself against the knowledge of God...futurisim is not knowledge
from God it is knowldge of how "people feel"! Untill you can come up with
something more then other "people feel"....Then if you are wrong..you have no
one to blame but your self becasue your objections are not logical nor are they
scriptureal they are nothing more then well other "people feel" ......!?..who
cares..
"then only God can make the call as what he means and what is doctrine"
....demonstrate a logical argument from scripture or change your postions
or keep appealiing to the fact that other people have different ideas, do thing
and convence Christ you loved his appearinig even though you denied it existed,
even after it was shown to you beause ...who knows...maybe Jesus will "feel"
your delimea?! Phlil your objections have no bases in logic or scripture
...... even a blind cow sonner or latter finds a acer of green grass...
"He gave us the Apostles to make all the calls, and they meet in councils"The
people of apostolic times needed the Apostles, the chosen of Christ to explain
it to them. What different today
NO phil. The Apostles were only the first to teach it. They specificaly stated
the goseple had been preached to the whole world and then they even told you
not to think beyond what was written!..if you need others to interpret for the
Apostles then who is going to interpret for the interpreters? if the
interpreters do not need interpritaions becuase they have the authority then
why do the Apostles need modern day interpreters they had the authority too and
specificaly told you not to think beyond what was written....2 There is no
apostilic sucession (handded down authority), like the gifts and prohecy it
would all come to a end...specifcialy when that which was perfect had
come...Hint: It was called the "consumation" and it took place in the lifetime
of that generation..!? Councils are irrelevant they have no authority, for that
mater they have no real purpose after Christ came.........there was only one
infaliable Councile you read about it
in Acts...........the were a various hodgpodges of herisy and truth ...but the
truth had already been delivered once for the whole world it could not be
changed and only the Apostles could do that there are no more apostles they and
their authority were only here untill Christ return...The Apostle John was
alive in AD 69 we know for sure....... After Christ Came what was the purpose
of the counciles excpet in the minds of men?!
It is not physical v spiritual both are interelated both are literal and both
are identified?!
--- On Sat, 8/23/08, philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Psalm 19/ Christ 2nd Return
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Saturday, August 23, 2008, 12:27 AM
well gee phil...for you to say it is just my opinion, ..well... is realy just
your opinon right?!.......
Exactly Allen.. That is my whole point. If just one or some "can wrest to
their own destruction" (thats Hellfire) , then only God can make the call as
what he means and what is doctrine. The people of apostolic times needed the
Apostles, the chosen of Christ to explain it to them. What different today..
Now God does not come down to many, if any individuals, else there would be no
disputes.
He gave us the Apostles to make all the calls, and they meet in councils. Even
in scripture this is shown. To them was given the Holy ghost.. And even here
not always individuals. Judas is a case in point, and the other fallen clerics
over time. That they passed on this power by the laying of hands also
scriptual.. It is they in council together who have the gaurantee of the Holy
Spirit, given very strict conditions to explain Scriptual doctrine.. Not me,
not you, not any self proclaimed self appointed preacher of the word.. This
same type of council long after Jesus ascended, collected, and cannonised, the
Books of the Bible which you accept was gauranteed by the Holy spirit because
in council they had the Spirit . Nothings changed, except the rebellion has
made all the people self apointed agents of the Holy Ghost.
Now before you get all het up, having said that, Scripture is by no means a
forbidden read or discussion point for the ordinary man, so long as he keeps in
mind the words of the Ethiopian. This calls for Humility. I am not game to say
I am smarter than that Ethiopian. Which in these modern times most people do.
But as regards so many things, Geocentrism for example, or even evolution, its
relativly an open discussion. I'm cautious here, because for a Catholic this
has controversial reasons for being disputed. Dogma, like the Ten commandments,
for example cannot be changed..
I believe likewise for the reasons I have enumerated many times, that
geocentrism and evolution is dogma for ever. I do not have to find the science
to back that up.. They have to find the science to prove the opposite, and
there is one certain scientific fact, they cannot do that up till now. They
are still wallowing in the dreamtime of quantum fiction.
Now I thought I had covered it, but you keep bringing it back. The return of
Jesus Christ. There is so many scriptual references that can mean spiritual
figures of Christ.. perhaps meaning His mystical body the Church.. Just as
likewise we can point to many antichrists... But there is only one antichrist
the man of sin who will come before the end of the world.. And there is only
one real important return of Christ/
The most obvious real return of Jesus in person refers to the final judgement,
when he destroys the world, and Judges the living and the dead... NOW , You
might take this literally living people, and the dead raised.... But another,
takes the spiritual meaning that He will judge all the dead ressurrected, both
"Living" saved, and "dead" eternally damned in the fires of hell.
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 10:35 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Psalm 19/ Christ 2nd Return
Phill, me in blue...... "Its not a buffet where you pick and chose" Agreed! we
need to take all of it.....I'm waiting for the whatever it is that you think i
am missing.....
"Protestantants of the Sola Scriptura variety tend to go blind when confronted
with certain passages of scripture" That is a true statment!.....Ah...but, it
is a equaly true statment for anyone and everyone in the world who claims
Christainity that includes RC, Orthodox, and anibatist too!!!..........This
proves what?!..... Nothing, except sombody's gota be wrong!?.....Thats why i go
to such legnths to demonstrate and not just assert a postion.......if you got a
passage of scripture that we need to incorparate into our examination here,
that may change the dynamics of the discussion, then by all means put that
forward....I'm not commited to "my doctrine" I am commited to the endevor to
put forward proper doctrine......there is a difference...in acny case what is
it that we need to look at that would demand and demonstrate that Christ did
not come exactly when He said he would or that He did not mean literly what he
said?! If you do not have that
then what in the world are you objecting too?
"It quite clearly say it is not.... understandable.. I repeat it againin which
are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable
wrest..." , UHHH...Phil........that verse does not say that it is not
understandable...It explicitly states that some things are hard to understand
...I AGREE!..but that is not the same as "cannot be understood"!?.........Most
people do not understand it that is true if they did i would be wasting my time
would i not either way right or wrong. It also states that "the unlearned and
unstable wrest"..I agree with that as well. In fact, my whole thesis has
been that the futurist argument and folks who make it are unlearned certainly
not grounded with "stability" in the faith of Christ own
words?!........... .all this puts us back to the original point I put
forward..how do you know who is and is not?........well...some of us
demonstrate and others just make assertions!.....I have thus far
demonstrated, waiting for further demonstration that shows my error!? ....your
objections thus far is basical..."you could be wrong" & or that is your view/
opion"......I say fine..demonstrate the error....if scritpure can be understood
then it should be able to validate ..but as of yet your objections do not
consist of any scriptural demonstrations...your objections are "it's my
opinion"...well gee phil...for you to say it is just my opinion, ..well... is
realy just your opinon right?!.......How do you know it is just one or my
opinion and not the truth?! Your objections answer nothing.They only suppose
that there is no real way to know, although we shoud accept someones
"authority" and know that they have that authorituy by vertue of what?!..lots
of folks calim various authority of "interpritations" over the word of God!?
--- On Fri, 8/22/08, philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Psalm 19/ Christ 2nd Return
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 4:35 PM
are the scriptures understandable and or coherent or not?! Allen... No they
are not understandable and coherent.. Scripture is a complete lesson and must
be taken in its entirety. Its not a buffet where you pick and chose. . If you
cannot accept or comprehend a part, then you must fail to comprehend the whole.
Now Allen unless you did not read it, Protestantants of the Sola Scriptura
variety tend to go blind when confronted with certain passages of scripture,
It quite clearly say it is not.... understandable.. I repeat it again,
in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and
unstable wrest...
and another confirmation that people need an Apostle ordained by Christ , also
where people tend to go blind,
30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he
said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? 31 Who said: And
how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up
and sit with him.
Now this was no common phillip like me, This man had the complete and whole
revelation direct from Christ Himself . And None of His writings are in
Scripture.. Which detracts nothing at all. He was the founding father of most
of the churches of the East... See ya.. Allen.
Little phil.
----- Original Message -----
From: allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 8:49 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Psalm 19/ Christ 2nd Return
I don’t have a problem with “MAYBE IM WRONG “ ..but maybe I’m wrong is not a
logical or scriptural reason for objecting to anything (particularly sound
doctrine..lol).
Again, Phil, I can agree...people twist and don’t use scripture properly all
the time and there is a difference between opinion and dogma ..but as i keep
pointing out ...why can't you demonstrate that to be the case ?...are the
scriptures understandable and or coherent or not?! If they are, then there is
no reason why one cannot demonstrate their doctrine....it is either found in
scripture or not? This brings us back to the same place we were before....is
the problem with making sense of scripture because scripture can only be
properly interpreted in millions of different ways all of which ar eequaly
valid?!...or is scripture logical and coherent but many if not most of its
"interpreters" are not logical or coherent. If scripture is coherent and
logical ( one would think sound reasoning is a property of the author cough)
(consistency is a mark of sound reasoning regardless of ones "philosophy") if
it is, then when someone misapplies scripture
or makes a mistake in using scripture much like one may make a mistake with a
80000 piece jigsaw puzzle or puts fourth ideas/ doctrines that are inconsistent
with it, then it follows that the error should be possible to demonstrate in
fact not opinion! ...Again, if scripture is coherent and can be logically
(consistently) applied. Otherwise, you are left with a “authority of doctrine
(even in the RC camp) that is by definition incoherent, inconsistent and makes
no sense without first knowing what the truth is so as to "interpret it
properly". If that is the case then:
1.Scripture is not a guide to the truth but rather something that needs the
truth in order to understand and interpret it.
2. There is no way to claim scripture as giving authority to anyone for the
purpose of interpreting it without first knowing what the truth is so as to
make sure your interpretation of who ‘s job it is, is the correct
interpretation.
If it is coherent and authoritative for doctrine, then someone anyone should be
able to demonstrate the doctrine…………if you cannot demonstrate your doctrine
then maybe….. just maybe, your doctrine is the problem……… I duknow…what you
think?
--- On Fri, 8/22/08, philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Psalm 19/ Christ 2nd Return
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 2:32 PM
I understand Phil,
What your saying is fine except if it is true then you should have no problem
demonstrating from scripture the error ..but my point is you cannot. Therefore,
either the scripture is logically incoherent and un-discernable or it is
logical and discernable but your position is not Consistent with the text. You
see the choice is not between me and interpretation & or “my view” it is really
about the scripture and your/ the futurist view! Mine is demonstrated at least
thus far consistent with the text and the futurist...is........I'm waiting for
it....? Allen
According to your opinion Allen..But there is an old saying that the insane
person thinks he is sane and all the rest are mad.
Hence Scripture has warned us all here about wasting our time the way we are,
and maybe of even leading someone astray? . Philip.
13 But we look for new heavens and a new earth according to his promises, in
which justice dwelleth.
14 Wherefore, dearly beloved, waiting for these things, be diligent that you
may be found before him unspotted and blameless in peace. 15 And account the
longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul,
according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are
certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest,
as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being
led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.
Peter
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