are the scriptures understandable and or coherent or not?! Allen... No they are not understandable and coherent.. Scripture is a complete lesson and must be taken in its entirety. Its not a buffet where you pick and chose. . If you cannot accept or comprehend a part, then you must fail to comprehend the whole. Now Allen unless you did not read it, Protestantants of the Sola Scriptura variety tend to go blind when confronted with certain passages of scripture, It quite clearly say it is not.... understandable.. I repeat it again, in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest... and another confirmation that people need an Apostle ordained by Christ , also where people tend to go blind, 30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? 31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. Now this was no common phillip like me, This man had the complete and whole revelation direct from Christ Himself . And None of His writings are in Scripture.. Which detracts nothing at all. He was the founding father of most of the churches of the East... See ya.. Allen. Little phil. ----- Original Message ----- From: allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 8:49 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Psalm 19/ Christ 2nd Return I don’t have a problem with “MAYBE IM WRONG “ ..but maybe I’m wrong is not a logical or scriptural reason for objecting to anything (particularly sound doctrine..lol). Again, Phil, I can agree...people twist and don’t use scripture properly all the time and there is a difference between opinion and dogma ..but as i keep pointing out ...why can't you demonstrate that to be the case ?...are the scriptures understandable and or coherent or not?! If they are, then there is no reason why one cannot demonstrate their doctrine....it is either found in scripture or not? This brings us back to the same place we were before....is the problem with making sense of scripture because scripture can only be properly interpreted in millions of different ways all of which ar eequaly valid?!...or is scripture logical and coherent but many if not most of its "interpreters" are not logical or coherent. If scripture is coherent and logical ( one would think sound reasoning is a property of the author cough) (consistency is a mark of sound reasoning regardless of ones "philosophy") if it is, then when someone misapplies scripture or makes a mistake in using scripture much like one may make a mistake with a 80000 piece jigsaw puzzle or puts fourth ideas/ doctrines that are inconsistent with it, then it follows that the error should be possible to demonstrate in fact not opinion! ...Again, if scripture is coherent and can be logically (consistently) applied. Otherwise, you are left with a “authority of doctrine (even in the RC camp) that is by definition incoherent, inconsistent and makes no sense without first knowing what the truth is so as to "interpret it properly". If that is the case then: 1.Scripture is not a guide to the truth but rather something that needs the truth in order to understand and interpret it. 2. There is no way to claim scripture as giving authority to anyone for the purpose of interpreting it without first knowing what the truth is so as to make sure your interpretation of who ‘s job it is, is the correct interpretation. If it is coherent and authoritative for doctrine, then someone anyone should be able to demonstrate the doctrine…………if you cannot demonstrate your doctrine then maybe….. just maybe, your doctrine is the problem……… I duknow…what you think? --- On Fri, 8/22/08, philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Psalm 19/ Christ 2nd Return To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 2:32 PM I understand Phil, What your saying is fine except if it is true then you should have no problem demonstrating from scripture the error ..but my point is you cannot. Therefore, either the scripture is logically incoherent and un-discernable or it is logical and discernable but your position is not Consistent with the text. You see the choice is not between me and interpretation & or “my view” it is really about the scripture and your/ the futurist view! Mine is demonstrated at least thus far consistent with the text and the futurist...is........I'm waiting for it....? Allen According to your opinion Allen..But there is an old saying that the insane person thinks he is sane and all the rest are mad. Hence Scripture has warned us all here about wasting our time the way we are, and maybe of even leading someone astray? . Philip. 13 But we look for new heavens and a new earth according to his promises, in which justice dwelleth. 14 Wherefore, dearly beloved, waiting for these things, be diligent that you may be found before him unspotted and blameless in peace. 15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness. Peter