Dear Philip, Please read the following very, very carefully and you will see that what I have said is just the same as my other posting that you commented on. Much of what you accuse me of is what I accuse evolutionists of. There is no contradiction in this and I explain it below. The whole point of my posting, in a nutshell, is that my belief in a creator God (an un-caused first cause) is exactly that - a belief. It is not irrational to believe that there was a creator. Those who do not believe in this must believe that order happened without any cause, undirected and from nothing and they too have to stick a 'rational' label on it - they have no choice. But from their humanistic, materialist world view, it doesn't stack-up without they first admit it is their belief. I have no problem with evolutionists if they admit that theirs is a belief system. If they want to wear the mantle of scientists, they must put their science where their mouths are. It is OK for me to say 'God did it' because that is my belief. But they cannot appeal to 'belief' so they must what???????? Regarding witnessing to non-Christians, my tactic is to show them the absurdity of evolution and get them to admit that something must have caused, designed, created it etc. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: philip madsen To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 12:49 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Invitation Jack I know you wrote it to Paul, but, taking it personally, your arguments are typical of those that could never swing me towards a belief in God. It was the standard argument used by the Catholic Church, and even as it was to the 14 year old that I was, it is still today without logic. It is what I would call "primitive logic" suited to non technical natural peasants. And I say this, St thomas Aquinas, and Aristotle, nothwithstanding. I was a true seeker. But I was then and am still today too knowledgeable for Aristotle.