[geocentrism] Re: Fw: Ben Stein Logic

  • From: "PETER CHARLTON" <peter.nambo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:33:30 -0000

Thanks Philip,
I wondered why I not come across the Biblical prophesy you mention regarding 
Enoch and Elias, they are from the additional books of the Catholic Bible which 
I did read once but couldnt except thier authenticity based on the writting 
style. (Read the Catholic Daniel 13 and compare it to the previous 12 books of 
Daniel to see what I mean).

You quote the following scripture that appears in Catholic as well as 
Protostant Bibles where Jesus at the Transfiguration reveals who the scripture 
you quoted in Malachi meant when it said of the return of Elias, namely that 
the return of Elias was refering to John the Baptist and certainly not Elias 
himself to convert those who call themselves Jews at the end of the age.

   12 However, I say to YOU that E·li´jah has already come and they did not 
recognize him but did with him the things they wanted. In this way also the Son 
of man is destined to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples perceived 
that he spoke to them about John the Baptist. 

A study of the Bible reveals that others can be called a greater fullfillment 
of a prophet than the prophet himself, ie, Jesus is the greater Moses, not that 
Moses himself returned.


Based on Pauls words and the way the Bible works, there may well be a further 
embodyment of the fullfillment of the scripture in Malachi, another John the 
Baptist, maybe in the form of one of the Two Witnesses, and he might well be 
sent to regather Israel, but this is not directly prophisised in scripture, 
just supposition.

What I would say however, is that the scriptures allways talk about the 
regathering of Isreal, not the regathering of Jews.
Israel is the full 12 tribes whose identity is lost, to us that is, to God, who 
knows all things, he will know who the genetic decendants of Abraham are and 
too whom he owes the promise. These genetic decendants might well be you and I 
Philip, allready Christians.

Just because a group of muderous Russians who Satan uses to decieve the entire 
inhabited world call themselves Jews, does not mean God is obliged to treat 
them as the seed of Abraham.

The physical seed of Abraham is the lost 12 tribes of Isreal.
The more relevant Spiritual seed of Abraham, (remember Jesus said God could 
raise Children to Abraham from these stones), are those who followed the 
Messaih, that being the Judaens and Gentiles who have become Christians, these 
are the inhabitants of Heavenly Jerusalem and the Bride of Christ who will be 
persecuted and yet proteceted for the 3 1/2 years.

Pete Charlton       
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: philip madsen 
  To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:45 PM
  Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Fw: Ben Stein Logic


  Hi Philip,
  Can you tell me the verses please that say Enoch will come back to convert 
the Gentiles and Elias the Jews please.

  Many thanks

  Pete

  \Peter, The web site of the source is closed down, it seems, but I had 
already filed the entire book which is a relatively small file. It is from a 
book called History of Antichrist, which I have on my bookshelf. . I found it 
compelling reading because it is pure conjecture, and shows alternate 
possibilities and contradictions. from scripture and other sources.   
considering it was written in another age over a century ago.  1884.  
Interesting.  

  I post here the relevant part to Enoch and Elias, and attach the entire book 
for those who would like to start from the beginning.  Phil. 

  ".............Not only the saints but also the angels will hasten to the 
standard of the cross and aid the Church in this her great tribulation; St. 
Michael the Archangel shall rise and engage in furious combat against the enemy 
of the people of God. (Dan. 12:1). St. John represents St. Michael fighting 
against the dragon unchained. (Apoc. 12:7). Finally, God shall prepare a safe 
retreat for his faithful children in the desert (Apoc. 12:14), which means that 
God will not allow the demons, all-powerful as they will be, to reveal to the 
emissaries of Antichrist the hiding places of a great number of Christians, 
who, though faithful to God, yet have not courage enough to confront the enemy 
or brave the dangers of so terrible a persecution. All this aid will certainly 
be greater and more abundant in this last struggle, though quite the same in 
all ages of the Church; God directs all things by His benign Providence, and He 
will send Elias and Enoch to aid and sustain His spouse in her last trying 
ordeal. (Lap. 8,1

  IV. Extraordinary Success. Elias and Enoch will Return

  It is certain that neither Elias nor Enoch are dead. It is written, Enoch 
walked with God and disappeared. (Gen. 5:22-24). Enoch, according to the wise 
man, was pleasing to God, who placed him in paradise. (Ecclesiasticus 44:16). 
And St. Paul says that Enoch was removed, that he might not see death. (Heb. 
11:5). The Scripture is still more explicit relative to Elias. He is said to 
have been walking in company with Eliseus on the banks of the Jordan when he 
was carried off in a fiery chariot to heaven. (4 Kings 2:11). Eccelsiasticus 
(48:9) and Machabees (Book 1, 2:58) allude to the same fact. All the Fathers 
are in perfect accord on this point and teach it as an apostolic tradition; we 
shall quote here only St. Irenaeus (Lib. 4, c.30). The disciples of the 
Apostles say that those who were carried off from this world otherwise than by 
death were placed in a terrestrial paradise and that they will remain there 
till the end of the world in an incorruptible state.

  Theologians assign many reasons for this signal favor. They maintain that God 
desired to show by the preservation of these two men during so many centuries 
the possibility of the indefinite permanence of man upon earth and to confirm 
our faith in the general resurrection of the body, for, as the sequel will 
show, these men shall die and rise again at the Last Judgment.

  V. Conjectures on the Place of TheirSojournand on the Kind of Life They Lead

  Where are they? No one knows. Ecclesiasticus says that Enoch was translated 
to paradise (44:16), whence some of the holy Fathers have concluded that they 
dwell in the terrestrial paradise; but the term "paradise" is amphibological 
and may signify any place of repose and delight, for it appears to be certain 
that the terrestrial paradise no longer exists, at least since the Deluge. Some 
of the Fathers, with St. Jerome, believe that they have been translated to some 
heavenly body. (Hier, in Amos. 9). It is in this way that they account for the 
fact of Elias being carried off in the heavens. But the word heaven may also 
mean the atmosphere with which the earth is surrounded. Hence it is more 
probable that they were conveyed to a part of the earth yet unexplored, a 
delightful paradise that will not be discovered before the end of the world. 
(Suarez de Myst. vit. Christi.).

  But how do they live in this unknown place since it is certain that they are 
not yet in a glorified state? They know God only by the same means we do, 
namely, by faith and reason, or contemplation; they do not behold Him face to 
face, as do the elect. Their bodies are not yet endowed with the qualities of 
those that are glorified. However, it is certain that their life is different 
from ours. As St. Augustine remarks (de peccat. merit 3), their life is neither 
of earth nor of heaven. They are no longer pilgrims in this world, and it is 
very probable that they are unable to merit until they return to this life 
again. St. Thomas asserts that they live on the fruit of the Tree of Life, 
which was Adam's food before he sinned. Or, to speak more correctly, with St. 
Jerome (Epist. ad Panmach.), their bodies are spiritualized, and consequently 
do not need food as we do to sustain life. If they use any, it must be a 
spiritual food which God knows how to furnish. This opinion of St. Jerome is 
very probable since this kind of food suits best those who live on the word of 
God and who take their delight in contemplating His perfections. (Bernard, 
Serm. 6, de Ascens. Domini.). If it is certain that they are unable to offend 
God, that they are totally delivered from all the irregular movements of 
concupiscence, it is not unlikely that they are frequently visited by God and 
His angels and favored with many revelations. Can it be said that they ignore 
the accomplishment of the mysteries of the Incarnation and work of our 
salvation? Did not Elias assist at the Transfiguration of Our Lord? (Mat. 17:3; 
Mk. -9:3; Lk. 9:30). It is also probable that they know and are interested in 
what takes place in this world. Many miracles wrought through the intercession 
of Elias prove that they are not complete strangers to human events.

  VI. Will Elias and Enoch Return? and How Will They Oppose Antichrist?

  To deny that Elias and Enoch will return in person would be, according to 
Bellarmine and Suarez, if not heterodoxy, at least erroneous. Their coming is 
announced by the Sacred Scriptures in four different places. The prophet 
(Malachias 4:5) says: "I will send you Elias the prophet before the coming of 
the great day of the Lord, and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the 
children and the heart of the children to their fathers." Again, in 
Ecclesiasticus 48:10, it is said that Elias was "predestined in the judgments 
of times to appease the wrath of the Lord, reconcile the heart of the father to 
the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob." Finally, we read in the Gospel 
according to St. Matthew (17:11), "Elias indeed shall come and restore all 
things."

  Relative to the return of Enoch, the Sacred Scriptures speak only once in a 
formal manner. Enoch pleased God and was translated into paradise, that he may 
come and give repentance to the nations. (Ecclesiasticus 44:16). And although 
they are not nominally specified in the Apocalypse, still it is plain to be 
seen that they are designated as the two prophets who will be the adversaries 
of Antichrist. (Apoc. 11: 3-12).

  Elias and Enoch will come in person and not in spirit; such is the obvious 
meaning of the Sacred Scriptures and the holy Fathers. For why should God wrest 
them from the common lot of mankind and give them such a long life if it be not 
His design to confide to them an extraordinary mission at the end of the world? 
And moreover, would it not be most useful to men whose faith begins to waver to 
have a clear notion of the identity of the origin of the law of nature, of the 
written law, and of the law of grace, especially when that knowledge is 
obtained from men who bear witness to the time in which they lived, to the 
fidelity and veracity of our God.

  VII. What to Think of the Return of Moses, Jeremias, and St. John the

  Evangelist?

  Some of the Fathers, as also some theologians, have thought that

  Moses, Jeremias, and St. John the Evangelist will also return on the earth 
before the end of the world. We shall cite some of the reasons upon which this 
opinion is founded.

  St. Hilary (Can. 20, in Mat.), one of those who maintain that Moses will 
return, pretends that this prophet is not yet dead, and that since he witnessed 
the glory of the Saviour on Tabor in his first advent, he ought to bear witness 
to it also in His second coming. But these reasons are only little better than 
simple conjectures. Is it not said in Deuteronomy that Moses died and that the 
children of Israel bewailed his death for thirty days? (Deut. 34:5-8).

  Some ecclesiastical authors believed that Jeremias was reserved to prophesy 
to the Gentiles (Jer. 25 :30), which he has not as yet done and because the 
Scripture does not speak of his death. But it may be said that he prophesied 
among the Gentiles in preaching to the children of Israel dispersed among the 
Babylonians and the people of Egypt. The fact of the Scripture saying nothing 
of his death does not prove that he is still living. Moreover, we are informed 
by tradition that he was stoned to death in Egypt and that his tomb was held in 
great veneration by the people of that country. (Epiphan. lib. de Prophet, 
vit.; Isidor. lib. de vita et morte Sane tor; Dorithen, in Synopsi.)

  There are good reasons in favor of the opinion that St. John the Evangelist 
will return. They are as follows: Our Lord, in speaking to St. Peter, said of 
the beloved disciple: "Lo if I will have him to remain till I come, what is it 
to thee?" (In. 21 :22). While He says of the sons of Zebedee that they shall 
die martyrs. You shall drink of my chalice. (Mat. 20:23). It is certain that 
St. John was not martyred. The prophecy not being yet fulfilled, there is 
reason to believe that he has been reserved to fall at the hands of Antichrist; 
there appears to be no other motive for the delay of his martyrdom. In the 
Apocalypse (10:11), an angel says to St. John: "Thou must prophesy again to 
many nations and peoples andkings." This prediction is not yet realized and 
most probably will not till near the end of the world. To this may be added the 
fact that we have no relics of the holy Apostle and that singular things are 
said of his disappearance. He is said to have shut himself up in a tomb and 
then ordered those present to retire; when his disciples returned on the 
following day, they could find no trace of him, and since that time he has 
never been heard from. These facts show that St. John rather disappeared than 
died. This opinion is, moreover, sustained by concomitant reasons. Since in 
those latter times men will have the advantage of seeing and hearing two men as 
witnesses of the natural and the written law, why not someone to bear witness 
to the law of grace also? And who could do this better than St. John? He lived 
in the most intimate familiarity with Our Divine Lord and consequently is well 
calculated to bear Him witness and disclose the artifices of Antichrist since 
he foretold for centuries beforehand about the "man of sin." For these reasons 
St. Hippolytus (de Cons. Mundi.), St. Ambrose (in LUG. 7), Simeon Metaphraste 
(in Vita Joan), with others sustain this opinion. 

  However, it must be admitted that the contrary opinion is the more probable.

  Eusebius (Lib 3. Hist. C. 31), St. Jerome (Hieron, Lib. de Scriptura, Eccles. 
et contra Jovin.), Tertullian (Lib. de Anim. 20), St. Augustine (Serm. 549, de 
Tempore), St. Isidore (Lib. de Vita et Obitu Sanct.), St. Epiphanius (Haeres, 
78), maintain that St. John is dead, as well as the other Apostles. In the 
Ecumenical Council of Ephesus (2 C. 14), Pope St. Celestine and St. John 
Chrysostom speak of the relics of his body, and the fact that these relics not 
existing now must be attributed to the evil days of the past. The text of the 
Gospel on which the return of St. John is based may be otherwise interpreted. 
Thus it is susceptible of the following signification: "I desire that he may 
remain as he is until I return and destroy Jerusalem." This is the 
interpretation given by Theophylacte.

  Those words of Our Lord are also susceptible of a conditional signification 
similar to this: "And even when I would desire that this disciple should remain 
in the world until I return to judge it, what is if to you?" This is the 
explanation given by St. Chrysostom and St. Cyril. Finally, it is not possible 
that Our Saviour meant by this that St. John should live on without dying until 
His second coming when He should visit him. Nevertheless, such is the opinion 
of St. Augustine, Venerable Bede, and St. Thomas. The prophecy relative to the 
martyrdom of the Apostle was fulfilled the day on which he was cast into the 
cauldron of boiling oil in Rome. He came out of it full of life and vigor, it 
is true, but that was due to a great miracle. He withstood a torture capable in 
itself to cause death, which in the eyes of the Church and before God suffices 
to merit the palm of martyrdom. Hence it is that the Church in her liturgy 
gives him this glorious title. As to the other prophecy, it has certainly been 
realized during the life of St. John. After having written his Apocalypse, he 
preached the Gospel again in Asia Minor. Finally, to refute the plausibility of 
the alleged reasons, wecan say that the witnesses of the Law of Grace are so 
numerous and their testimony so certain and so striking, since they sealed it 
with their blood, that it does not appear necessary nor even useful to revoke 
any other proofs. And in any case, may we not cite Elias as an eye-witness of 
the Law of Grace since he saw the Transfiguration of the Saviour.

  It is, then, more than probable, as we are led to suppose from the 
Apocalypse, that God has reserved only two men of the world to defend and 
console the Church during her last persecution.

  VIII. Mission of Elias and Enoch

  In the Church's infancy, St. Peter and St. Paul received, individually, a 
special mission, though not exclusively so; St. Peter was destined to 
evangelize the Jews, and St. Paul became the Apostle of the Gentiles. (Gal. 1 
:16). In the latter times, two new Apostles will divide between them the work 
of evangelizing the world. Enoch will preach to the Gentiles, whose faith and 
charity he will stir up and revive (Ecclesiasticus 44:16), while Elias, Jew by 
birth, will be charged with the conversion of the Jews. (Ecclesiasticus 48:10).

  IX. Conversion of the Jews

  We here meet with the difficult task of reconciling two prophecies which are 
apparently in contradiction: Antichrist will be received by the Jews; Elias 
will convert the Jews.

  Still it becomes an easy task by making use of a distinction furnished by the 
Sacred Scriptures. "And at that time shall thy people be saved, everyone that 
shall be found written in the book" of life. (Dan. 12:1). "And all that dwelled 
upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of 
the Lamb." (Apoc. 13 :8). According to these texts, a portion of the Jews will 
remain obstinate and will adhere to Antichrist, but the greater part will hear 
the voice of Elias and will be converted. This final conversion of the Jews is 
spoken of in various places of the Bible. The prophet Osee speaks of it (3 
:4-5): "For the children of Israel shall sit many days without king, and 
without prince, and without sacrifice, and without altar, and without ephod, 
and without theraphim; and after this the children of Israel will return and 
shall seek the Lord their God and David their king; and they shall fear the 
Lord and His goodness in the last days." Moses expresses the same prediction. 
"After all the things aforesaid shall find thee, in the latter thou shalt 
return to the Lord thy God and shalt hear his voice." (Deut. 4:30). St. Paul 
speaks in similar terms: "Hath God cast away his people?" (Rom. 11:1). And 
again he adds: "That blindness in part hath happened in Israel until the 
fullness of the Gentiles should come in, and so all Israel should be saved, as 
it is written." (Rom. 11 :25-26). In light of language so clear and formal of 
the sacred text, St. Augustine and St. Gregory do not hesitate to affirm that 
this conversion of the Jews is a truth of divine faith. (Aug. 20 de Civitate, 
C. 39; Greg. in prim. Lib. Reg. C 2 et 20, Moral. C. 23, Super. Cant. C 6).

  X. Miracles and Combats of the Two Patriarchs

  In order to discharge the duties of their mission with greater efficiency, 
the two patriarchs willbe invested with the power of the Most High God.

  St. John, speaking of them in the Apocalypse (11 :3-6), says: "I will give my 
power unto my two witnesses; and they will prophesy. . . clothed in sack-cloth. 
These are the two olive trees and two candlesticks that stand before the Lord 
of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire will come out of their mouths 
and shall devour their enemies; and if any man will hurt them, in this manner 
must he be slain. These have the power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the 
days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them into 
blood, and to strike the earth with plagues as often as they will."

  In virtue of this power they will be able to console the Church and diminish 
the evils with which she will be afflicted in those days of sorrow and 
desolation.

  St. Peter and St. Paul were not deterred from announcing the Gospel to pagan 
Rome, the mistress of idolatry. In those latter times the two prophets will 
also come and attack with intrepidity the enemy of Christ. They will attack him 
at Jerusalem, the center of his empire. This assertion seems to be founded on 
the Apocalypse, (11:8), "And their bodies shall lie in the street." By this 
passage they are represented as dying in the city of Jerusalem.

  XI. Duration of Their Preaching

  The mission of Elias and Enoch will last for 1260 days; that is to say, three 
years, five months, and fifteen days; in other words, about three years and a 
half, which is about the length of Antichrist's reign. (Apoe. 11:3). Antichrist 
and these two patriarchs will very probably appear simultaneously. The Sacred 
Scripture, Tradition, and the Fathers all concur in corroborating this opinion.

  XII. Their Martyrdom

  Having fulfilled their mission, the beast will prevail over them. The career 
of these holy apostles will be similar to that of Our Divine Saviour, who 
during three years was inviolable: His enemies dispatched soldiers to take Him 
prisoner (In. 7:32); they endeavored to stone Him to death (In. 10:31); and 
they brought Him to the brow of the hill whereon their city was built that they 
might cast Him down headlong. (Lk. 4:29). But their courage failed them, and 
"He passing through their midst went His way." (Lk. 4:30). But there came a 
time when He suffered Himself to fall into their hands. "Your hour and that of 
the powers of darkness has arrived." (Lk. 22:53).

  Elias and Enoch will be invulnerable during 1260 days. Then God will suffer 
them to fall into the hands of Antichrist that they may win the crown of 
martyrdom - their time for working miracles having ceased while the man of sin 
will still perform more striking wonders. And [when] they shall have given 
their testimony, "The beast that ascendeth out of the abyss shall make war 
against them, and shall overcome them and kill them." (Apoc. 11 :7). A pious 
legend has it that they will be crucified like Our Divine Saviour. Their holy 
bodies shall lie in the great city where their Master has been crucified. This 
city is called mystically Sodom and Gomorrah. A great number of people of every 
tribe and nation will see the bodies of these martyrs during three days and a 
half. At this sight the people will rejoice and makemerry and shall send each 
other presents because these two prophets are dead who tormented them that 
dwelt upon the earth. (Apoc. 11:8-10).

  XIII. Apogee of Antichrist's Power

  Antichrist will boast and glory in his victory. He will open his mouth in 
blasphemy against God, cursing His holy name, the tabernacle, and the saints of 
heaven. (Apoc. 13:6). No reverses shall impede his action. (Dan. 8:12). His 
glory will surpass that of all other divinities (2 Thes. 2:4), and his language 
shall be that of a boaster. (Dan. 11 :36). The universal acclamations which he 
will receive on all sides will flatter his pride; all will exclaim, "Who is 
like unto the beast, who can withstand him?" (Apoc. 13:4). Finally, prosperity 
shall attend all his movements up to the time when the vengeance of God shall 
overtake him. (Dan. 11:36

  Chapter 3- The Consummation

  ARTICLE I-DIVINE REACTION AGAINST ANTICHRIST AND HIS PARTISANS

  1. Resurrection of Elias and Enoch

  Three days after their death, the glorious martyrs will rise triumphant from 
the dead to the great wonder and consternation of their enemies. Those who 
rejoiced on seeing their mangled bodies lying in the street will be 
terror-stricken on beholding them walking again as other living beings. "And 
after three days and a half, the spirit of life from God entered into them. And 
they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon them that saw them. And 
they heard a great voice from heaven, saying to them come up hither. And they 
went up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies saw them. And at that hour 
there was made a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and 
there were slain in the earthquake names of men seven thousand; and the rest 
were cast into a fear, and gave glory to the God of heaven." (Apoc. 11:11-13).

  What are we to think of those events recordedin theSacred Scriptures? Is the 
narration an allegory, or is it historic? The most of the holy Fathers and 
Doctors, and notably St. Hippolytus of Antioch, Tertullian (lib. de Anima), S1. 
Ambrose (in Ps. 45), St. Gregory (14 Moral., C. 11), Richard of St. Victor, and 
St. Thomas (in 11 Apoc.) are of opinion that St. John narrates here a[n] 
historical fact.

  One of the principal rules by which we must interpret the Sacred Scriptures 
is to always take the obvious and literal sense of the words unless that there 
is a sufficient reason for doing otherwise. And in the text cited above there 
is no reason why we should deviate from the literal sense to accept an 
allegorical meaning. On the contrary, this anticipated glorification of Elias 
and Enoch is in perfect harmony with the justice and goodness of God. Nothing 
could conduce more to reanimate the courage of the faithful who were 
disheartened by the death of their leaders, while it was well calculated to 
induce Antichrist to attempt an extravagant enterprise that would result in his 
destruction.

  2. End of Antichrist; Destruction of his Empire

  According to the hypothesis (which seems to be certain) that the man of sin 
will appear simultaneously on the scene with Elias and Enoch, Antichrist will 
survive them only thirty days, which gives Tertullian occasion to say that the 
impious will perish by the blood of Elias and Enoch. (lib. de Anima).

  In order to destroy the good effect whichthe ascension of the two martyrs 
produced in the hearts of men, Antichrist will proclaim to the world his design 
of ascending to heaven. With a view to the carrying out of this project, he 
will pitch his tent on Mount Apadno, situated between the Caspian and the 
Persian Seas, where, according to some writers, Antiochus Epiphanes, figure of 
Antichrist, perished and from which, according to others. Christ ascended into 
heaven, it being then called Mount Olivet. (Dan. 11 :45). St. Ambrose, St. 
Jerome, and St. Thomas say that he will ascend from the top of this mountain 
into the air, as did Simon Magus at Rome. But God shall overwhelm him by the 
splendor of His glory and shall precipitate him to the earth by a simple puff 
of his breath. (2 Thes. 2 :8).

  And when he shall fall, the earth will open and swallow up the beast and 
false prophet amidst flames of fire and sulphurous smoke, while his emissaries 
shall perish by the sword of him seated on the white horse. (Apoc. 19:11-21).

  Thus shall vanish like smoke the power and glory of Antichrist, to whom we 
may very appropriately apply these words of Holy Writ: "I have seen the wicked 
highly exalted, and lifted up like the cedars of Lebanon, and I passed by, and 
10 he was not; and I sought him and his place was not found." (Ps. 36:35-36).

  ARTICLE II-DIVINE REACTION AGAINST THE WORLD WHICH DESIRED AND MERITED THE 
GOVERNMENT OF ANTICHRIST

  1. Interval between the Death of Antichrist and the End of the World

  The end of the world will take place almost immediately after the death of 
Antichrist. An interval of forty [-five] days, however, .........snipped  " 

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