Thanks Philip, I wondered why I not come across the Biblical prophesy you mention regarding Enoch and Elias, they are from the additional books of the Catholic Bible which I did read once but couldnt except thier authenticity based on the writting style. (Read the Catholic Daniel 13 and compare it to the previous 12 books of Daniel to see what I mean). You quote the following scripture that appears in Catholic as well as Protostant Bibles where Jesus at the Transfiguration reveals who the scripture you quoted in Malachi meant when it said of the return of Elias, namely that the return of Elias was refering to John the Baptist and certainly not Elias himself to convert those who call themselves Jews at the end of the age. 12 However, I say to YOU that E·li´jah has already come and they did not recognize him but did with him the things they wanted. In this way also the Son of man is destined to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples perceived that he spoke to them about John the Baptist. A study of the Bible reveals that others can be called a greater fullfillment of a prophet than the prophet himself, ie, Jesus is the greater Moses, not that Moses himself returned. Based on Pauls words and the way the Bible works, there may well be a further embodyment of the fullfillment of the scripture in Malachi, another John the Baptist, maybe in the form of one of the Two Witnesses, and he might well be sent to regather Israel, but this is not directly prophisised in scripture, just supposition. What I would say however, is that the scriptures allways talk about the regathering of Isreal, not the regathering of Jews. Israel is the full 12 tribes whose identity is lost, to us that is, to God, who knows all things, he will know who the genetic decendants of Abraham are and too whom he owes the promise. These genetic decendants might well be you and I Philip, allready Christians. Just because a group of muderous Russians who Satan uses to decieve the entire inhabited world call themselves Jews, does not mean God is obliged to treat them as the seed of Abraham. The physical seed of Abraham is the lost 12 tribes of Isreal. The more relevant Spiritual seed of Abraham, (remember Jesus said God could raise Children to Abraham from these stones), are those who followed the Messaih, that being the Judaens and Gentiles who have become Christians, these are the inhabitants of Heavenly Jerusalem and the Bride of Christ who will be persecuted and yet proteceted for the 3 1/2 years. Pete Charlton ----- Original Message ----- From: philip madsen To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Fw: Ben Stein Logic Hi Philip, Can you tell me the verses please that say Enoch will come back to convert the Gentiles and Elias the Jews please. Many thanks Pete \Peter, The web site of the source is closed down, it seems, but I had already filed the entire book which is a relatively small file. It is from a book called History of Antichrist, which I have on my bookshelf. . I found it compelling reading because it is pure conjecture, and shows alternate possibilities and contradictions. from scripture and other sources. considering it was written in another age over a century ago. 1884. Interesting. I post here the relevant part to Enoch and Elias, and attach the entire book for those who would like to start from the beginning. Phil. ".............Not only the saints but also the angels will hasten to the standard of the cross and aid the Church in this her great tribulation; St. Michael the Archangel shall rise and engage in furious combat against the enemy of the people of God. (Dan. 12:1). St. John represents St. Michael fighting against the dragon unchained. (Apoc. 12:7). Finally, God shall prepare a safe retreat for his faithful children in the desert (Apoc. 12:14), which means that God will not allow the demons, all-powerful as they will be, to reveal to the emissaries of Antichrist the hiding places of a great number of Christians, who, though faithful to God, yet have not courage enough to confront the enemy or brave the dangers of so terrible a persecution. All this aid will certainly be greater and more abundant in this last struggle, though quite the same in all ages of the Church; God directs all things by His benign Providence, and He will send Elias and Enoch to aid and sustain His spouse in her last trying ordeal. (Lap. 8,1 IV. Extraordinary Success. Elias and Enoch will Return It is certain that neither Elias nor Enoch are dead. It is written, Enoch walked with God and disappeared. (Gen. 5:22-24). Enoch, according to the wise man, was pleasing to God, who placed him in paradise. (Ecclesiasticus 44:16). And St. Paul says that Enoch was removed, that he might not see death. (Heb. 11:5). The Scripture is still more explicit relative to Elias. He is said to have been walking in company with Eliseus on the banks of the Jordan when he was carried off in a fiery chariot to heaven. (4 Kings 2:11). Eccelsiasticus (48:9) and Machabees (Book 1, 2:58) allude to the same fact. All the Fathers are in perfect accord on this point and teach it as an apostolic tradition; we shall quote here only St. Irenaeus (Lib. 4, c.30). The disciples of the Apostles say that those who were carried off from this world otherwise than by death were placed in a terrestrial paradise and that they will remain there till the end of the world in an incorruptible state. Theologians assign many reasons for this signal favor. They maintain that God desired to show by the preservation of these two men during so many centuries the possibility of the indefinite permanence of man upon earth and to confirm our faith in the general resurrection of the body, for, as the sequel will show, these men shall die and rise again at the Last Judgment. V. Conjectures on the Place of TheirSojournand on the Kind of Life They Lead Where are they? No one knows. Ecclesiasticus says that Enoch was translated to paradise (44:16), whence some of the holy Fathers have concluded that they dwell in the terrestrial paradise; but the term "paradise" is amphibological and may signify any place of repose and delight, for it appears to be certain that the terrestrial paradise no longer exists, at least since the Deluge. Some of the Fathers, with St. Jerome, believe that they have been translated to some heavenly body. (Hier, in Amos. 9). It is in this way that they account for the fact of Elias being carried off in the heavens. But the word heaven may also mean the atmosphere with which the earth is surrounded. Hence it is more probable that they were conveyed to a part of the earth yet unexplored, a delightful paradise that will not be discovered before the end of the world. (Suarez de Myst. vit. Christi.). But how do they live in this unknown place since it is certain that they are not yet in a glorified state? They know God only by the same means we do, namely, by faith and reason, or contemplation; they do not behold Him face to face, as do the elect. Their bodies are not yet endowed with the qualities of those that are glorified. However, it is certain that their life is different from ours. As St. Augustine remarks (de peccat. merit 3), their life is neither of earth nor of heaven. They are no longer pilgrims in this world, and it is very probable that they are unable to merit until they return to this life again. St. Thomas asserts that they live on the fruit of the Tree of Life, which was Adam's food before he sinned. Or, to speak more correctly, with St. Jerome (Epist. ad Panmach.), their bodies are spiritualized, and consequently do not need food as we do to sustain life. If they use any, it must be a spiritual food which God knows how to furnish. This opinion of St. Jerome is very probable since this kind of food suits best those who live on the word of God and who take their delight in contemplating His perfections. (Bernard, Serm. 6, de Ascens. Domini.). If it is certain that they are unable to offend God, that they are totally delivered from all the irregular movements of concupiscence, it is not unlikely that they are frequently visited by God and His angels and favored with many revelations. Can it be said that they ignore the accomplishment of the mysteries of the Incarnation and work of our salvation? Did not Elias assist at the Transfiguration of Our Lord? (Mat. 17:3; Mk. -9:3; Lk. 9:30). It is also probable that they know and are interested in what takes place in this world. Many miracles wrought through the intercession of Elias prove that they are not complete strangers to human events. VI. Will Elias and Enoch Return? and How Will They Oppose Antichrist? To deny that Elias and Enoch will return in person would be, according to Bellarmine and Suarez, if not heterodoxy, at least erroneous. Their coming is announced by the Sacred Scriptures in four different places. The prophet (Malachias 4:5) says: "I will send you Elias the prophet before the coming of the great day of the Lord, and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to their fathers." Again, in Ecclesiasticus 48:10, it is said that Elias was "predestined in the judgments of times to appease the wrath of the Lord, reconcile the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob." Finally, we read in the Gospel according to St. Matthew (17:11), "Elias indeed shall come and restore all things." Relative to the return of Enoch, the Sacred Scriptures speak only once in a formal manner. Enoch pleased God and was translated into paradise, that he may come and give repentance to the nations. (Ecclesiasticus 44:16). And although they are not nominally specified in the Apocalypse, still it is plain to be seen that they are designated as the two prophets who will be the adversaries of Antichrist. (Apoc. 11: 3-12). Elias and Enoch will come in person and not in spirit; such is the obvious meaning of the Sacred Scriptures and the holy Fathers. For why should God wrest them from the common lot of mankind and give them such a long life if it be not His design to confide to them an extraordinary mission at the end of the world? And moreover, would it not be most useful to men whose faith begins to waver to have a clear notion of the identity of the origin of the law of nature, of the written law, and of the law of grace, especially when that knowledge is obtained from men who bear witness to the time in which they lived, to the fidelity and veracity of our God. VII. What to Think of the Return of Moses, Jeremias, and St. John the Evangelist? Some of the Fathers, as also some theologians, have thought that Moses, Jeremias, and St. John the Evangelist will also return on the earth before the end of the world. We shall cite some of the reasons upon which this opinion is founded. St. Hilary (Can. 20, in Mat.), one of those who maintain that Moses will return, pretends that this prophet is not yet dead, and that since he witnessed the glory of the Saviour on Tabor in his first advent, he ought to bear witness to it also in His second coming. But these reasons are only little better than simple conjectures. Is it not said in Deuteronomy that Moses died and that the children of Israel bewailed his death for thirty days? (Deut. 34:5-8). Some ecclesiastical authors believed that Jeremias was reserved to prophesy to the Gentiles (Jer. 25 :30), which he has not as yet done and because the Scripture does not speak of his death. But it may be said that he prophesied among the Gentiles in preaching to the children of Israel dispersed among the Babylonians and the people of Egypt. The fact of the Scripture saying nothing of his death does not prove that he is still living. Moreover, we are informed by tradition that he was stoned to death in Egypt and that his tomb was held in great veneration by the people of that country. (Epiphan. lib. de Prophet, vit.; Isidor. lib. de vita et morte Sane tor; Dorithen, in Synopsi.) There are good reasons in favor of the opinion that St. John the Evangelist will return. They are as follows: Our Lord, in speaking to St. Peter, said of the beloved disciple: "Lo if I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee?" (In. 21 :22). While He says of the sons of Zebedee that they shall die martyrs. You shall drink of my chalice. (Mat. 20:23). It is certain that St. John was not martyred. The prophecy not being yet fulfilled, there is reason to believe that he has been reserved to fall at the hands of Antichrist; there appears to be no other motive for the delay of his martyrdom. In the Apocalypse (10:11), an angel says to St. John: "Thou must prophesy again to many nations and peoples andkings." This prediction is not yet realized and most probably will not till near the end of the world. To this may be added the fact that we have no relics of the holy Apostle and that singular things are said of his disappearance. He is said to have shut himself up in a tomb and then ordered those present to retire; when his disciples returned on the following day, they could find no trace of him, and since that time he has never been heard from. These facts show that St. John rather disappeared than died. This opinion is, moreover, sustained by concomitant reasons. Since in those latter times men will have the advantage of seeing and hearing two men as witnesses of the natural and the written law, why not someone to bear witness to the law of grace also? And who could do this better than St. John? He lived in the most intimate familiarity with Our Divine Lord and consequently is well calculated to bear Him witness and disclose the artifices of Antichrist since he foretold for centuries beforehand about the "man of sin." For these reasons St. Hippolytus (de Cons. Mundi.), St. Ambrose (in LUG. 7), Simeon Metaphraste (in Vita Joan), with others sustain this opinion. However, it must be admitted that the contrary opinion is the more probable. Eusebius (Lib 3. Hist. C. 31), St. Jerome (Hieron, Lib. de Scriptura, Eccles. et contra Jovin.), Tertullian (Lib. de Anim. 20), St. Augustine (Serm. 549, de Tempore), St. Isidore (Lib. de Vita et Obitu Sanct.), St. Epiphanius (Haeres, 78), maintain that St. John is dead, as well as the other Apostles. In the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus (2 C. 14), Pope St. Celestine and St. John Chrysostom speak of the relics of his body, and the fact that these relics not existing now must be attributed to the evil days of the past. The text of the Gospel on which the return of St. John is based may be otherwise interpreted. Thus it is susceptible of the following signification: "I desire that he may remain as he is until I return and destroy Jerusalem." This is the interpretation given by Theophylacte. Those words of Our Lord are also susceptible of a conditional signification similar to this: "And even when I would desire that this disciple should remain in the world until I return to judge it, what is if to you?" This is the explanation given by St. Chrysostom and St. Cyril. Finally, it is not possible that Our Saviour meant by this that St. John should live on without dying until His second coming when He should visit him. Nevertheless, such is the opinion of St. Augustine, Venerable Bede, and St. Thomas. The prophecy relative to the martyrdom of the Apostle was fulfilled the day on which he was cast into the cauldron of boiling oil in Rome. He came out of it full of life and vigor, it is true, but that was due to a great miracle. He withstood a torture capable in itself to cause death, which in the eyes of the Church and before God suffices to merit the palm of martyrdom. Hence it is that the Church in her liturgy gives him this glorious title. As to the other prophecy, it has certainly been realized during the life of St. John. After having written his Apocalypse, he preached the Gospel again in Asia Minor. Finally, to refute the plausibility of the alleged reasons, wecan say that the witnesses of the Law of Grace are so numerous and their testimony so certain and so striking, since they sealed it with their blood, that it does not appear necessary nor even useful to revoke any other proofs. And in any case, may we not cite Elias as an eye-witness of the Law of Grace since he saw the Transfiguration of the Saviour. It is, then, more than probable, as we are led to suppose from the Apocalypse, that God has reserved only two men of the world to defend and console the Church during her last persecution. VIII. Mission of Elias and Enoch In the Church's infancy, St. Peter and St. Paul received, individually, a special mission, though not exclusively so; St. Peter was destined to evangelize the Jews, and St. Paul became the Apostle of the Gentiles. (Gal. 1 :16). In the latter times, two new Apostles will divide between them the work of evangelizing the world. Enoch will preach to the Gentiles, whose faith and charity he will stir up and revive (Ecclesiasticus 44:16), while Elias, Jew by birth, will be charged with the conversion of the Jews. (Ecclesiasticus 48:10). IX. Conversion of the Jews We here meet with the difficult task of reconciling two prophecies which are apparently in contradiction: Antichrist will be received by the Jews; Elias will convert the Jews. Still it becomes an easy task by making use of a distinction furnished by the Sacred Scriptures. "And at that time shall thy people be saved, everyone that shall be found written in the book" of life. (Dan. 12:1). "And all that dwelled upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb." (Apoc. 13 :8). According to these texts, a portion of the Jews will remain obstinate and will adhere to Antichrist, but the greater part will hear the voice of Elias and will be converted. This final conversion of the Jews is spoken of in various places of the Bible. The prophet Osee speaks of it (3 :4-5): "For the children of Israel shall sit many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without altar, and without ephod, and without theraphim; and after this the children of Israel will return and shall seek the Lord their God and David their king; and they shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the last days." Moses expresses the same prediction. "After all the things aforesaid shall find thee, in the latter thou shalt return to the Lord thy God and shalt hear his voice." (Deut. 4:30). St. Paul speaks in similar terms: "Hath God cast away his people?" (Rom. 11:1). And again he adds: "That blindness in part hath happened in Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in, and so all Israel should be saved, as it is written." (Rom. 11 :25-26). In light of language so clear and formal of the sacred text, St. Augustine and St. Gregory do not hesitate to affirm that this conversion of the Jews is a truth of divine faith. (Aug. 20 de Civitate, C. 39; Greg. in prim. Lib. Reg. C 2 et 20, Moral. C. 23, Super. Cant. C 6). X. Miracles and Combats of the Two Patriarchs In order to discharge the duties of their mission with greater efficiency, the two patriarchs willbe invested with the power of the Most High God. St. John, speaking of them in the Apocalypse (11 :3-6), says: "I will give my power unto my two witnesses; and they will prophesy. . . clothed in sack-cloth. These are the two olive trees and two candlesticks that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire will come out of their mouths and shall devour their enemies; and if any man will hurt them, in this manner must he be slain. These have the power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with plagues as often as they will." In virtue of this power they will be able to console the Church and diminish the evils with which she will be afflicted in those days of sorrow and desolation. St. Peter and St. Paul were not deterred from announcing the Gospel to pagan Rome, the mistress of idolatry. In those latter times the two prophets will also come and attack with intrepidity the enemy of Christ. They will attack him at Jerusalem, the center of his empire. This assertion seems to be founded on the Apocalypse, (11:8), "And their bodies shall lie in the street." By this passage they are represented as dying in the city of Jerusalem. XI. Duration of Their Preaching The mission of Elias and Enoch will last for 1260 days; that is to say, three years, five months, and fifteen days; in other words, about three years and a half, which is about the length of Antichrist's reign. (Apoe. 11:3). Antichrist and these two patriarchs will very probably appear simultaneously. The Sacred Scripture, Tradition, and the Fathers all concur in corroborating this opinion. XII. Their Martyrdom Having fulfilled their mission, the beast will prevail over them. The career of these holy apostles will be similar to that of Our Divine Saviour, who during three years was inviolable: His enemies dispatched soldiers to take Him prisoner (In. 7:32); they endeavored to stone Him to death (In. 10:31); and they brought Him to the brow of the hill whereon their city was built that they might cast Him down headlong. (Lk. 4:29). But their courage failed them, and "He passing through their midst went His way." (Lk. 4:30). But there came a time when He suffered Himself to fall into their hands. "Your hour and that of the powers of darkness has arrived." (Lk. 22:53). Elias and Enoch will be invulnerable during 1260 days. Then God will suffer them to fall into the hands of Antichrist that they may win the crown of martyrdom - their time for working miracles having ceased while the man of sin will still perform more striking wonders. And [when] they shall have given their testimony, "The beast that ascendeth out of the abyss shall make war against them, and shall overcome them and kill them." (Apoc. 11 :7). A pious legend has it that they will be crucified like Our Divine Saviour. Their holy bodies shall lie in the great city where their Master has been crucified. This city is called mystically Sodom and Gomorrah. A great number of people of every tribe and nation will see the bodies of these martyrs during three days and a half. At this sight the people will rejoice and makemerry and shall send each other presents because these two prophets are dead who tormented them that dwelt upon the earth. (Apoc. 11:8-10). XIII. Apogee of Antichrist's Power Antichrist will boast and glory in his victory. He will open his mouth in blasphemy against God, cursing His holy name, the tabernacle, and the saints of heaven. (Apoc. 13:6). No reverses shall impede his action. (Dan. 8:12). His glory will surpass that of all other divinities (2 Thes. 2:4), and his language shall be that of a boaster. (Dan. 11 :36). The universal acclamations which he will receive on all sides will flatter his pride; all will exclaim, "Who is like unto the beast, who can withstand him?" (Apoc. 13:4). Finally, prosperity shall attend all his movements up to the time when the vengeance of God shall overtake him. (Dan. 11:36 Chapter 3- The Consummation ARTICLE I-DIVINE REACTION AGAINST ANTICHRIST AND HIS PARTISANS 1. Resurrection of Elias and Enoch Three days after their death, the glorious martyrs will rise triumphant from the dead to the great wonder and consternation of their enemies. Those who rejoiced on seeing their mangled bodies lying in the street will be terror-stricken on beholding them walking again as other living beings. "And after three days and a half, the spirit of life from God entered into them. And they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon them that saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven, saying to them come up hither. And they went up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies saw them. And at that hour there was made a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and there were slain in the earthquake names of men seven thousand; and the rest were cast into a fear, and gave glory to the God of heaven." (Apoc. 11:11-13). What are we to think of those events recordedin theSacred Scriptures? Is the narration an allegory, or is it historic? The most of the holy Fathers and Doctors, and notably St. Hippolytus of Antioch, Tertullian (lib. de Anima), S1. Ambrose (in Ps. 45), St. Gregory (14 Moral., C. 11), Richard of St. Victor, and St. Thomas (in 11 Apoc.) are of opinion that St. John narrates here a[n] historical fact. One of the principal rules by which we must interpret the Sacred Scriptures is to always take the obvious and literal sense of the words unless that there is a sufficient reason for doing otherwise. And in the text cited above there is no reason why we should deviate from the literal sense to accept an allegorical meaning. On the contrary, this anticipated glorification of Elias and Enoch is in perfect harmony with the justice and goodness of God. Nothing could conduce more to reanimate the courage of the faithful who were disheartened by the death of their leaders, while it was well calculated to induce Antichrist to attempt an extravagant enterprise that would result in his destruction. 2. End of Antichrist; Destruction of his Empire According to the hypothesis (which seems to be certain) that the man of sin will appear simultaneously on the scene with Elias and Enoch, Antichrist will survive them only thirty days, which gives Tertullian occasion to say that the impious will perish by the blood of Elias and Enoch. (lib. de Anima). In order to destroy the good effect whichthe ascension of the two martyrs produced in the hearts of men, Antichrist will proclaim to the world his design of ascending to heaven. With a view to the carrying out of this project, he will pitch his tent on Mount Apadno, situated between the Caspian and the Persian Seas, where, according to some writers, Antiochus Epiphanes, figure of Antichrist, perished and from which, according to others. Christ ascended into heaven, it being then called Mount Olivet. (Dan. 11 :45). St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, and St. Thomas say that he will ascend from the top of this mountain into the air, as did Simon Magus at Rome. But God shall overwhelm him by the splendor of His glory and shall precipitate him to the earth by a simple puff of his breath. (2 Thes. 2 :8). And when he shall fall, the earth will open and swallow up the beast and false prophet amidst flames of fire and sulphurous smoke, while his emissaries shall perish by the sword of him seated on the white horse. (Apoc. 19:11-21). Thus shall vanish like smoke the power and glory of Antichrist, to whom we may very appropriately apply these words of Holy Writ: "I have seen the wicked highly exalted, and lifted up like the cedars of Lebanon, and I passed by, and 10 he was not; and I sought him and his place was not found." (Ps. 36:35-36). ARTICLE II-DIVINE REACTION AGAINST THE WORLD WHICH DESIRED AND MERITED THE GOVERNMENT OF ANTICHRIST 1. Interval between the Death of Antichrist and the End of the World The end of the world will take place almost immediately after the death of Antichrist. An interval of forty [-five] days, however, .........snipped "