[geocentrism] Re: Evolution

  • From: j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 07:44:08 -0700 (PDT)

Paul
  A few comments in red
  JA

Paul Deema <paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
          
  J A
I used the term 'sad' because it is gentle, non inflammatory. I acknowledged 
that the data were accurate -- but part of the formula is to leave out the 
complicated bits, the bits which would show that the problem is not simple and 
that a simple explanation often misses the point So what are the complicated 
bits? What are the missed points?. But the really sad part is embodied in the 
quote -
    Is the explanation of the data derived from empirical, observational 
science, or an interpretation of past events (historical science)? Cast doubt 
-- it may not be based on eye witness account therefore it's unreliable! There 
is nothing wrong with casting doubt on something you are trying to refute - 
thats part of arguing against something. Separating observation from 
interpretation is a realistic goal in that pursuit.
  Are there any assumptions involved in the dating method? Assumptions are bad! 
No, assumptions are just that, assumptions. If all your assumptions are 
unprovable or questionable, then so to are your conclusions.
  Are the dates provided by 14C dating consistent with what we observe? Where 
is there any possibility of observing -- say -- 15000 year passage of time? 
Therefore it's unreliable! Thats not what they mean. Are the results always 
accurate with known samples? No. Do objects that are considered to old to have 
c14 still have it, yes. Does this mean c14 dating is consistant with what we 
observe, no.
  Do all scientists accept the 14C dating method as reliable and accurate? This 
could be attacked on just so many fronts. What is a scientist? Does a degree in 
Political Science qualify? How about Theology? But presumably their opinions 
would have weight equal to those of a graduate in nuclear physics. What is the 
standard of accuracy needed? What does reliable mean in this context? For 
someone who finds the concensus of the people he believes in to be of 
determining value, I don't see why you should fault someone for questioning the 
solidarity of those people.
  It's all about doubt. (standard practice for trying to show something is not 
true, or at least not as rock solid as others would have you believe)There is 
nothing of the point by point engagement one might hope for. (the article is 
well-written, with sound arguements that are carefully explained in a point by 
point refutation of C14 dating. What did you read??? I was expecting you to 
take the points raised and show me why they were wrong-headed, or illogical or 
something, not just dismiss the entire thing. I could take those same questions 
(with a word here and there changed to meet the new subject) and pose them as 
being asked of the reliability and truth of the Bible. They would be just as 
unanswerable in that context as they are in the 14C context. And just as 
dishonest! (there is no dishonesty in this piece, if you can point out the 
specific lies, or even shading of the truth, then go ahead! The case is won by 
snake oil promotional methods. I think you call it that
 because it promotes what you assume to be unscientific, blinded by faith, 
anti-evolutionism. Creationists think evolutionists tend to be unscientific & 
blinded by faith. But responding like your opinion of the other is true, and 
they are therefore beneath responce is not engaging in debate. Look at the 
arguements, comment on the logic and observation. 
  However it all goes pear-shaped for me when we read -
    When a scientist?s interpretation of data does not match the clear meaning 
of the text in the Bible, we should never reinterpret the Bible. You can easily 
ignore this since you find it offensive and still comment on the actual logic 
and observation contained in the article.
  The corollary to this is that we must instead deny the evidence, or concoct 
some artifact to explain it away. Like decay rates might have been faster in 
the past or some other bunch of horse feathers (evidence that decay rates were 
faster in the past has some good scientific evidence. That you dismiss it out 
of hand makes your viewpoint unscientific). My view here is that if there is a 
creator God who made the universe, in whatever manner He chose -- what He did 
and how it works is best discovered by examining His handiwork and not by 
attempting to unravel the comments of those who claim to know what was meant by 
those who recorded what they said that God said. Creation scientists use logic 
and observation to answer the evidence of evolution, but evolutionists do not 
answer creationists charges with anything (it would seem) other than derision 
and righteous indignation. Who's the one using science to knock the other and 
who's using religious superiority? One could also
 wonder why there is so much acrimonious debate over just what the Bible's 
'clear meaning' is (perhaps it is the same reason evolutionists are always 
disagreeing, or the same reason everyone finds to disagree about everything 
under the sun). In passing, I note that the Bible has already been 
'interpreted' but we should not check that it was done correctly. (why not? why 
shouldn't anyone who's interested, investigate the meaning of the most 
important and influential book in the history of the world)
  Lastly, evidence which is difficult to deny is never mentioned eg at 
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/crebuttal1.html Earth's magnetic field would have 
stopped C14 dating no more than 1500 years ago. (A small rebuttal article). 
(the "rebuttal" consists of saying that any problem with the current 
evolutionary cosmology, no matter how great, will be answered in the future. 
That's one heck of a rebuttal. Nice fallback position for any foolishness one 
wants to believe in. I think ducks created the earth, I know there are some 
problems with this theory but all my peers accept this and future discoveries 
will vindicate me, so my current position is correct and scientific and how 
dare you question me you backward religious myth follower, I don't have to 
answer your actual arguements, you are beneath me!!!!
  Paul D
  JA

  ----- Original Message ----
From: j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 6:48:45 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Evolution

  Howdy Paul,
   
  Sorry, I'm wrapped around the axel so far this week and have only given your 
article a brief look. But I think I'll have a chance Thursday or Fri.
   
  On your opinion of my sugested article, I don't understand your use of the 
term sad. I understand you don't agree with what it said, and I take it you 
don't like the formula used for presentation, but what about the actual 
details? What do you find faulty in the actual reasoning?
   
  On the Grand Canyon, I believe you are mistaken about what would be claimed 
on that site, Normally creationists would say the river did not carve the 
canyon and that the time frame was much shorter than a year (perhaps you mean 
something else about the timeframe). The explaination would usually be a 
catastrophic dam break, releasing the contents of a large inland lake that is 
credited with carving the majority of the canyon, sometime after the retreat of 
the floodwaters of Noah. I don't think you read the article very well in this 
case.
   
  Regarding faith: it will be practically impossible for us to discuss it since 
we have very different definitions. But using your definition, you practice 
faith all the time if you accept theories like the big bang, or planet and star 
formation by accretion, or abiogenisis, etc... These are all theories that defy 
the known laws of science. 
   
  On my personal statement, thank you for your concern but I was moved, not 
prodded, so there is no problem here.
   
  JA

Paul Deema <paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
      
  J A
I read all of your reference 
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-c14-disprove-the-bible. (How 
are you going with 
"http://www.theory-of-evolution.net/seven-creation-paradigms-2.html";?) It is 
just like all the other pages I've read on this site in that it follows a sadly 
predictable formula -
  Start with an innocent question from a troubled believer.
  Explain the problem in simple but accurate terms.
  Cast doubt on some aspect of the problem.
  ... might have been ... ... has not been proved ... ... there is doubt about 
... etc eg -
    Is the explanation of the data derived from empirical, observational 
science, or an interpretation of past events (historical science)? 
  Are there any assumptions involved in the dating method? 
  Are the dates provided by 14C dating consistent with what we observe? 
  Do all scientists accept the 14C dating method as reliable and accurate? 
  (Build on this doubt until -- ta-da!)
  Argument demolished!
  Build alternate case based on the Bible.
  Make warm fuzzy statements to reassure the reader.
  (References, if not actually internal, are overwhelmingly 'friendly' ).
   
  While reading this page, I followed a link which led me to something on AiG 
about the Grand Canyon but I didn't make a note of the page. However, the crux 
of it was this -
  The Grand Canyon -- 277miles long, 4 - 18 miles wide, depth in places exceeds 
one mile. Sediments deposited, attained sufficient strength to stand 
unsupported, and Colorado river carved out the canyon -- all in one year? 
Clearly evidence doesn't cut the mustard here, you need faith -- that which 
allows us to believe what we know just isn't possible.
  Concerning faith -- I have been wondering for quite some time about why some 
have it, others don't, but the majority just have a dollar each way. There may 
be a gene which predisposes us to be what we are.
  Thank you for sharing your experience of personal faith but I hope you didn't 
feel prodded to do so because that was certainly not my intention.
  Paul D
  


  
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