[geocentrism] Re: Climate change
- From: Paul Deema <paul_deema@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: Geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 22:48:05 +0000 (GMT)
Martin S
I am heartened by your defence of my position. In response, may I say that --
basically -- I reciprocate.
I must take issue with one of your points though. I don't know if an automated
Michelson interferometer can be successfully (and economically) deployed to
Mars, but even if it could, the budgets are constrained and most people are
already convinced that the Earth moves -- there are after all, other
indicators. Most people believe that there are higher priority projects. I am
encouraged by your assertion that such a test would be decisive and have been
considering what other tests migh be helpful in this matter.
Concerning the Antiquity of Man exchange.
My first problem here is the position taken by Richard Milton in his response
to Michael Brass' response to the review of his book. I see as self serving the
action of labelling each of MB's objections (in bold italicised red underlined
font) "Error". A simple labelling of [MB] (responded) and [RM] (replied)
preceeding the response and the response to the response would have served the
purpose and deflected the possible accusation of lack of objectivity.
My second objection is the 'In your face!" challenges. This reminds me of the
kind of defence mounted (if the informal references upon which I rely are
accurate) by Martin Luther against the charges of heresy -- "Show me where I'm
wrong!". With careful choice of question, one can throw all the effort required
upon one's accusers and save oneself the effort of defence with lengthy
reasoned answers. It's dramatic, a common debating tactic and smacks of lack of
substance. Further, it is characteristic among humans who feel threatened by
the opposition's superior debating skills (or numerical superiority) even when
confident of one's factual position.
That said, and bearing in mind that I have not read the book, know nothing of
the author or the reviewer, have only the sketchiest understanding of
radioactive dating tecniques, and suffer other areas of general ignorance, the
reviewer has raised a number of objections to the author's claims which may
well have scientific merit. Fair enough. If you publish, you invite criticism.
This is the debate which advances the state of knowledge. Eventually a
concensus will emerge which is likely to be the best estimate we have of the
truth of the matter. In the meantime, this exercise has made me aware that
Michael Brass has written a book entitled "Antiquity of Man" involving a number
of scientific disciplines to which Richard Milton has a number of objections.
Despite my rapidly atrophying brain, should I hear these names again in another
context, a small bell will probably ring. Thus the state of my knowledge has
been imperceptably but positively advanced.
A final observation. It springs from the final challenge -
Produce a single conclusive scientific fact that confirms the Darwinist
interpretation of evolution.
This is clearly impossible and the questioner knows it. Even if produced, such
evidence would simply be the subject of a further challenge. What we have here
is an argument between two people, each of whom is convinced of the truth of
his position. It is unlikely that either of them will change their position,
but following the debate furthers the state of knowledge of the readers, some
of whom may change (or form) their position. Such is the evolution of
knowledge. (No pun intended).
As I've indicated previously, this is the limit to my responses on the subject
of evolution. It is another can of worms and I can barely contend with the can
of cosmology worms.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Neville J
Yet your opinion is based upon nothing except ... your opinion. (As usual.)
And if I quote others, you accuse me of an appeal to authority or to
popularity. How then am I to proceed? If I may be permitted a further opinion
(and it is an opinion) I think your response is based simply upon pique at my
drawing attention to what, in my opinion, is not supportable. Despite your
response, I still think this is the way forward.
Concerning the "Flower Pattern discovery" of which I have been cognizant for
some time. I have not previously raised the matter but since you do, please
allow me to respond. I have a planetarium program -- other than GU3.0 -- which
can be directed to draw 'flower patterns' of the planetary motions of all the
planets relative to the planet chosen to be the centre. This is not really
novel. This program also has the attribute of producing tables of astronomical
coordinates suitable for setting telescopes accurately to view the chosen body.
In the absence of a similar attribute in GU3.0, your assertion that it produces
similar -- and accurate -- predictions is moot.
I am puzzled by your confident assertion that neither we nor our offspring will
establish a means of conducting "... the experiments ...". You must be aware
that the pages of history are littered with statements such as this which have
been shown to be false. Refer also to Clarke's First Law and Asimov's corollary
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Philip M
I'd prefer to address your observations in a composed response but it is now
06h30K and I do have to get some sleep some time so I'll have to just slip
responses in (in blue).
All of your comments below seem to indicate you have not had my earlier
attention to your question. Here is the first part worth repeating.
You are not suggesting that the temperature rise caused the industrial
revolution are you? I'd guess not, Why not? but then the alternative is -- what
is the correlation? Is it just coincidence? read below again. All that aside, I
haven't found information supporting your proposition. How about a reference or
two so I can understand what you are talking about? Well the exact references
in detail are given in the documemtary which you have not seen. Then it is
difficult for me to comment.
Concerning which caused what. I suggest that if you have a curve of temperature
rise and a close facsimilie curve of a human activity -- the industrial
revolution -- there is likely a connection. I cannot see that a rise in
temperature would generate an industrial revolution despite your reasoning. You
say the temperature rise is 'many years' before the industrial revolution. (It
would help if I knew just how many). May I suggest that a more believable
explanation might lie in the industrial revolution definition dates. Perhaps it
or some precursor condition is actually earlier than commonly recognised. After
all, there was no monach's edict to begin inventing and exploiting with which
to date it. History is not an exact discipline.
From previous:
All of the statistics, from the ice cores show that over the millenia the co2
rises after temperature increase, not the way you are saying , which is the
major error Gore made. You asked for a hint why. Let us assume global
temperature were to rise as it did after the little ice age, due to solar
activity (most probable) or geological/volcanic or what ever, then human and
animal activity and indeed plant life increases naturally. More carbon is made,
Oh no! The amount of carbon on the planet is fixed. and as a consequence more
co2.follows. If plant life increases, the amount of CO2 decreases -- it goes
into cellulose and starches and sugars -- all carbohydrates (CHO). This is why
planting trees is such a catch phrase. CO2 is also used by marine organisms to
make their shells which, with the passage of time turns into limestone (CaCO3).
Accumulations of vegetation turn into coal and oil -- hydrocarbons (CH). All of
these mechanisms fix and sequestrate carbon. Along come a
bunch of gung-ho robber barons and after they've burned all the oak trees the
navy couldn't keep to itself, they start digging up coal and drilling for oil,
all of which they burn in a profligate and increasingly profligate manner. The
more is burned in production of steam engines and other engines of production,
the more the need increases. Part of the expansion process includes building,
of which concrete is a large part. Concrete uses portland cement which is made
by roasting limestone in furnaces -- guess what they are burning -- driving off
the CO2 in the process. I could add in here that invention and industrial
activity is more likely out of the warm era than out of the ice age. Don't know
about you but I only light fires when I'm cold. All of the great cathedrals (or
other structures) of Europe did not get constructed during the mini ice age.
Even today most large megastructures (national geographic) get put on hold
during really bad weather. further supported by
what I said below. The bottom line is this -- if you store up carbon for
millions of years, and then burn it in hundreds of years, you are producing a
big spike in CO2 concentration.
Paul said: If the effect is positive going up -- worrying -- it will be
negative -- comforting -- coming down
And this depends upon what part of History, or what part of the world where you
live. Not if you're a true cosmopolitan it doesn't. If you were in the age of
the mini ice age, as much as London enjoyed skating on the thames river, much
of Europe suffered accute famine. I'm sure the following increases in warmth
were not worrying. One may say likewise today for the people of Greenland, or
Northern Canada and Russia who would love to see a return of the warmer
climates they enjoyed in the past. I also would ask you who is being
"sensational" in talking of rising seas, particularly when this affects only
those who took advantage of settling land that came from the sea during the
mini ice age. The point is that climate change is natural, just as the sunspot
cycle is today very active, solar mininum almost nonexistent, I don't see any
correlations between sunspot numbers and temperature. If there were, the
~eleven year cycling of temperature would have been noticed long ago,
whereas the Butterfly Pattern was only discovered in 1904. See space weather
today, where we are only just one year past the 2006 solar mininum. Space
Weather News for June 2, 2007
http://spaceweather.com
A big sunspot is emerging over the sun's eastern limb, posing a threat for
significant solar activity. Already it has unleashed several M-class solar
flares. One of the eruptions, an M3-flare on June 1st, caused a shortwave radio
fadeout over Europe. Amateur astronomers with solar telescopes should keep an
eye on this photogenic sunspot, while shortwave radio listeners should be alert
for flare-triggered fadeouts and other propagation effects. Visit
http://spaceweather.com for photos and more information.
a point I have been driving home here even on this list I should think for many
years, the real obvious reason for our climate. The sun is doing its normal
thing, however much I don't particularly like it.
You ignored completely the sound reasoning behind my words in the email which I
reproduce here in part.
"You seem able to grasp the "conspiracy theory" if it's in the minority, why
can't you grasp that it may be in the majority? How about the opportunists with
the desire and resources to exploit the majority?" Society exists in a state of
dynamic tension. If the rationalists take a vacation the fundamentalists will
gain ground. If those who desire to make money stop advertising, even more, if
they stop producing -- especially consumer goods -- then those with little
money -- the exploited ones -- will have more money. Well they could have
except that they are the exploited ones because they are the less able and will
find some other way to lose their money. Apart from imposing some mammoth
lumbering paternalistic bureaucracy to oversee the smallest details of every
individual's live, I don't see how you can change that.
Addressed above.Paul..
I think you missed the point. The conspiracy is by the few, exploiting and
controlling the majority. I don't see why you keep raising this conspiracy
spectre. Just simple competition is enough to ensure exploitation. Besides, I
don't think there is any group sufficiently smart to achieve what suggest. By
which we mean a world wide conspiracy..You seemed to have no problem with
accepting that millions around the whole world are and were even more so for
millennia controlled by the well oiled Vatican administration.
Yet you cannot see the possibility of the other side of the coin, operating in
secret, using monetary manipulation controlling not only the media which NEEDS
money, but today even this vast Vatican installation as well.. Extended as well
to nearly all of the puppet rulers of Islam.
"He who pays the piper calls the tune."
This blindness of yours is not due to any thoughtful research but only due to
your astonishment and disbelief that any such a conspiracy could exist. Pretty
much -- yes. At least I hope it is that, and not some more sinister reason.
Like my own brother, who after being forced to accept the evidence , merely
retorted, "I can still do all right and come out rich within this system" That
is evil.
This monetary manipulation of banking and the creation of credit for all
nations world wide, is no real hidden secret, easily discerned by any serious
researcher, and is the KEY to the lock of their control, which if removed ,
would destroy their operation.. Yet you have not come back with one proof to
discredit this evil money trick. You refuse to look. I wonder what your
definition of money is? The truth is, money is nothing. Give everyone on the
planet $1,000,000,000 and the picture would not change because wealth is not in
pretty pieces of paper, it is in production. If production is less than money,
money depreciates to match and conversly. The social evils arise from what is
produced. If production focuses on gaudy, short lived consumer goods, useless
alternative medicine and gold plated Rolls Royces (Lincoln Continentals if you
live somewhere else |[:-)) then a large part of the society will spend itself
pointlessly poor and a significant part of the remainder will
have five car garages. But I don't see conspiracy -- just self interest.
A minor (by world standards) operation in Australia occurred after the
Commonwealth Bank was sold off, when the major banks contributed $50,000, each
to establish Card services, called Bankcard then. That was a capital injection
of $350,000. By the end of the second month of operation these cards had paid
out to retailers, and had people in hock to the extent of three million
dollars. For which they charged 18% interest on late payment. I use my credit
card for as many of my purchases as I possibly can. Yes, there is a small cost
involved -- the cost of running the infrastructure -- but apart from my
careless late payment on I think two occasions, it has cost me nothing and is
immensly useful. I feel sorry for those (and I know one) who just can't resist
that bargain, this unnecessary pair of shoes, holidays on credit in advance and
payed off over the coming 11 months etc. I also feel for those who jump off
bridges without a parachute (not necessarily on account of debt),
those who knowingly -- and this must be the majority -- become users of
addictive drugs. I feel for a large number of the world's unfortunates, but it
doesn't matter how you organise the planet, they will always be there. John
12:8; Mark 14:7; Matthew 26:11. I will agree with you that easy credit does
make it easy to siphon money from some people's pockets, but again, I don't see
conspiracy -- just self interest.
Go figure! Keeping in mind ,,,,,,,,,etc
and you said the documentary was not banned.. I used the word in place of my
earlier 'Opposed' "threatened" wherin the evidence in a major article was
given.. It was not shown before June, necesary to help people assess the need
for the Kyoto protocol for Australia.. Again presented,
Sorry Philip but there are three things for which I will drop everything in
order to change channels -- ABC's "Rage!", David Letterman, and 2GB's Alan "The
Parrot" Jones. We all have our pet peeves and these are three of mine.
Philip it is now 08h30K -- I think I've made a reasonable effort to address
your unanswered points. I have to get some sleep.
PS Your latest epistle has arrived -- obviously you are an early riser. I have
read j a's latest and will get to that tonight with luck -- especially if you
don't load me up in the interim |[:-)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Good night all
Paul D
_________________________________________________________________________________
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