1. Yes, now I think we are getting somewhere....You made a valid point and although I was not giving it a lot of consideration I was not doing so because it had no bearing on the issue before us... .. I thought we were arguing the Persian kings chronologies and dates and how those relate to 70 weeks and how that relates to 666..When you kept referencing the dates for the chapters I could not make sense of your comments that?s why I kept after you to concede. If your argument was based on the dates for the chapters, then there was/is no argument to make.......nor would it affect any of my arguments......In any case, thank you for pointing that out ....However, lets continue with the preeminent issues, Persian kings Chrono, the 70 weeks and 666 years or 666th year... 2. And as for the can of worms, I wrote my comments here so as to tie that and many other things together. Although they are not it is not dependent on each other they are worth consideration. I do not want to entirely detract from the whole 70 weeks and 666 thing which is the (666 thread)/my primary focus...see my comments below on the "can-o-worms" In the mean time, we've opened another can of worms: the identity of the visually stunning individual at Dan. 10:4-8, and whether that is Jesus or an angel (the angel of v. 9ff). I've already pointed out that a minority of commentators agree with you (Young, Keil, Henry, etc.), and being in the minority doesn't mean they (or you) are wrong. But none of these scholars calls the majority view "nonsense," for they realize that their own hypothesis is hardly free of problems. So, while I have respect for their scholarship (meaning I won't label the Jesus hypothesis "nonsense"), it's important not to sweep its problems under the rug. Responsible scholarship proceeds by acknowledging problems and working out tenable solutions, not labeling the opposing view "nonsense." None of the scholars who agrees with you as to the being's identity think that this is a vision of the future: it was Jesus as he was in His glory on 24 Nisan, 3rd year of Cyrus. They believe the message concerning things to come follows once Daniel is prepared to hear it, which is more than a dozen verses later in the narrative. The Key to understanding is the "certain man" & the "Voice of many waters" and the other parallels to Christ found in Revelation............... it has everything to do with the narration of ch's 11&12 which themselves are related to ch8 and the time of trouble such as never was....Ch 10 again.... 10:5. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude..........8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. 9. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. It does not record those words spoken by the man in the vison JESUS..Daniel fell asleep..... It only records what took place latter, the interpretation of the dream by the angel who had the appearance of a man but not a man...the Vison is of a "CERTAIN MAN" 10. And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands. ..................it does not say the hand of the one who?s voice I heard in the vison...In the vison Daniel fell asleep when he heard the voice of the vison that had the sound of many waters. 10:18. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, It does not say the appearance of the "certain man" described in v5-7.........Again the Angel has the "appearance of a man" but the vison was specific to a "CERTAIN MAN" . The Certain Man is Jesus who came in the latter days to which the following chapters 11& 12 are also in referenced to his days....The whole vison is verse 5-7 v9 is narration of what took place next and 10 is where next the angel ( one that had the appearance of a man) even comes into this narrative. This man Jesus is describe here as someone coming in the latter days and revelation describes that same Certain man who is...JESUS not any angel past or present. The problem is also most folk don?t understand the significance of having the voice of many waters ..it makes no sense for an angel to even use that kind of voice, It can only refer to Jesus! Daniel 10:5. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude..........8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. 9. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. Revelation 1:11. Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. Revelation 2:18. And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; Revelation 14:1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: Revelation 19:5. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. The significance of the voice with the sound of many waters is the waters are the many different peoples of God that is why Christ has the sound of many waters we are the many waters, The Body of Christ!?.The harlot too sits on many waters which is also many different peoples we are distinguished by Head of Jesus Christ??.The Church is the Body of Christ Where Christ is the head but the head of the beast was Babylon?Where Mystery Babylon is distinguished by its Head ?.the feet Rome always are called by the name of the Head they are attached to. BABYLON "let him who hath understanding count the number of the beast for it is the number of a man and is number is 666". That is why the Certain man in Daniel ch10 has the voice of many waters that is the significance to Ch 10-12 and at that time a time of trouble such as never was Jesus points that out It is Jesus that is Pouring out the desolation in ch9 via the Golden cup (see Attached zip Golden Cup of ) of wrath the harlot sits on many waters Revelation 17: 1. And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:?.. 4. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5.And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.?? Jeremiah 51:7. Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. 8. Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed. Revelation 14:8. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. The whole point to referring to Babylon it was not destroyed back in the day!???? Jeremiah is a prophecy about the spiritual city of blood (see attached zip City of Blood)not just a Physical kingdom of his day ..contrasted with the City New Jerusalem which is a spiritual city not a physical one???.. Revelation 19:7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready?. 12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.. Revelation 21:2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, The correlations found in scripture define scripture not men?s ill conceived lack of discernment. ....Like most things folk have it all backwards. The book of Daniel does not supercede Revelation, it is Jesus & in his Revelation that expounds upon Daniel and the rest of the OT... Never mind any notions about relating the Angel in Daniel to Jesus, Worse, it is Jesus they are attempting to ascribe to as an Angel..!?. "Martin G. Selbrede" <mselbrede@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: On May 30, 2007, at 12:02 PM, Allen Daves wrote: Apparently, you have been focused on the dates for the chapters where I thought we were addressing arguments for the dates & Persian kings chronology... Which, I thought was the preeminent issue before us that we were arguing but apparently , you say we were not... "I already SAID -- repeatedly -- that your chronology doesn't necessarily depend on your persistent distortion of the meaning of Daniel 11:1, so it made no sense to me why you kept defending an indefensible position." I have said repeatedly that it would not matter in any case if ch 11 were in 3rd year of Cyrus recording events (some or all) that took place earlier, specifically the 1st year of Darius, which came before. Again, the issue that is preeminent before us is the 666 years its relation to 70 weeks and how the Persian kings Chronology all fits together. So where are we?.... If Ch 10-12 are all given in 3rd year of Cyrus........11:1 takes place in 1st year of Darius even if everything else that follows is part of the narration that took place in the 3rd year of Cyrus....?. Very close, Allen, very close. 11:1 and the verse right before it apply to the 1st year of Darius, although the backward-looking statement in those two back-to-back verses was made by the angel to Daniel in the 3rd year of Cyrus. Yes. This is all I have been arguing for for days (it seems like weeks), nothing more (so far). The REASON we got hung up on this issue is because I originally said that the 70 weeks prophecy was delivered 2 years before the prophecies of chapters 10-12 and you said this was nonsense, that 11:1 proved that chapter eleven, and twelve were delivered to Daniel in the same year as the 70 weeks prophecy. This has been the entire dispute. ..Yes, I have been too strict/ monochromatic in presenting/ applying Dan 11:1 as it relates to dates for everything else that follows( although could be, not necessarily) & even when ch 10,11 & 12 were given (not nessisary all the dates of all the events they record)..... I have forced an imperative that does not exist,(could be but not necessarily) due to the artificial one created by the chapters break, and my focus on the Chrono (dates)of the kings rather then the Chrono(dates) of the chapters.... Yes, we're getting somewhere here. However, in any case, this does and would not affect anything in the preeminent issues before us, 70 weeks & the Persian kings chrono and specifically the date of any events surrounding the 1st year of Darius..(Ch 10-12 could all be recorded narrative in the 3rd year of Cyrus but Ch9 would not be in the 3rd year of Cyrus, I understood you to say that from earlier..?) Correct. The mere fact that they were delivered to Daniel in different years doesn't necessarily mean they cover different ground, but you appeared to be invested in the idea that you had to make good on them being delivered at the same time, for reasons unknown to me. What I did was attack the flank of this faulty handling of the chapter break, because chapter breaks (surprise) aren't canonical -- they were inserted by people who were guessing. There are plenty of bad chapter breaks in the English Bible, usually perpetuated due to tradition (which is fine for the many, many good chapter breaks, but bad for the handful that can mislead the unwary believer). ....Nor would this affect the fact that there are events in these chapters that relate to the 1st year of Darius (whatever they may or may not be exactly) True, I never said that there weren't events in Chapter 10-12 related to the 1st year of Darius. We may disagree on the extent of what is touched on in that backward glance, but on this general principle we are agreed. I identify the events as those from 10:21 to 11:1, in the angel's explanation to Daniel about how the spiritual warfare is going and who's helping who on the Lord's side of it. A..What ever they be, those events come before Cyrus not after. Yes, by definition, an event that occurred 2 years earlier would not fall in the present as seen from Daniel's perspective as he listened to the angel speak to him on 24 Nisan, 3rd Year of Cyrus. B..More importantly to the major issue before us,( the Persian kings chrono and how that relates to 70 weeks and how 70 weeks relates to 666years or 666th year......) it would have no bearing on the Persian kings Chronology whatsoever....... That would be my guess, and I've said so at least four or five times now in these exchanges as I questioned your insistence on arguing for something that didn't appear to be germane to your primary focus. So, maybe we are (at long last) past this sticking point and can move on. In the mean time, we've opened another can of worms: the identity of the visually stunning individual at Dan. 10:4-8, and whether that is Jesus or an angel (the angel of v. 9ff). I've already pointed out that a minority of commentators agree with you (Young, Keil, Henry, etc.), and being in the minority doesn't mean they (or you) are wrong. But none of these scholars calls the majority view "nonsense," for they realize that their own hypothesis is hardly free of problems. So, while I have respect for their scholarship (meaning I won't label the Jesus hypothesis "nonsense"), it's important not to sweep its problems under the rug. Responsible scholarship proceeds by acknowledging problems and working out tenable solutions, not labeling the opposing view "nonsense." None of the scholars who agrees with you as to the being's identity think that this is a vision of the future: it was Jesus as he was in His glory on 24 Nisan, 3rd year of Cyrus. They believe the message concerning things to come follows once Daniel is prepared to hear it, which is more than a dozen verses later in the narrative. In any event, it looks like we're finally over the 11:1 issue and will be able to grapple with more substantive issues regarding the Persian chronology you've worked out. I'm praying I'm not wrong about that! It was starting to get depressing, walking on the same landmine repeatedly to no avail. Respectfully, Martin